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Subject: Strategy Talking Points rss

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Greg Nordeng
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Hello everybody,

As some of you know I have a Youtube channel for broadcasting my OCTGN games. Currently I am commentating on live games, and that's it. I am looking to expand my videos into more specific strategic decision making, and talk more in depth about various aspects of the game.

This post is just looking to fish for some ideas for things I could do/talk about in my videos. First quesiton is...

Would this help anyone? If so, then...

What are the things you would like to see discussed?
Are there specific scenarios you would like to see played out?
What are weaknesses in your game that you would like to shore up?
Who has done this in the past, and what topics were most popular?

These are just brainstorming questions, any feedback is welcome. Thank you all, and especially to anyone checking out my videos.
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Kevin D.
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To me one of the most interesting situations that comes up in this game is when you are the runner and both players are 1 agenda away from winning. The corp does something to make you think they will win the game next turn and you have 4 actions to figure out how to beat them before that happens. What I like about it is that it highlights the process of targetting the server/servers that are most likely to yield results this turn. Sometimes it's an easy decision but a lot of the time, when unrezzed ICE are involved, it can be very complicated. I don't tend to have a problem thinking through my options when I am playing but am always interested in seeing the thought processes of others.
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Grish Noren
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Hey Nords, have a link to the youtube videos?
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Commenting live games is always welcome. What's needed most, I think, is the thinking process behind playing, that's all. Sometimes moves seem trivial or obvious, but they really aren't and there's substantial amount of thought hidden behind - this decision making is usually the crucial difference between increasing chances to win and decreasing chances to win. Just present some options and justify the one you pick.
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Greg Nordeng
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gumOnShoe wrote:
Hey Nords, have a link to the youtube videos?


This should do it I think.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-G_8CrqEI_hmOh3NL9CzUA
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Greg Nordeng
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Maghd wrote:
To me one of the most interesting situations that comes up in this game is when you are the runner and both players are 1 agenda away from winning. The corp does something to make you think they will win the game next turn and you have 4 actions to figure out how to beat them before that happens. What I like about it is that it highlights the process of targetting the server/servers that are most likely to yield results this turn. Sometimes it's an easy decision but a lot of the time, when unrezzed ICE are involved, it can be very complicated. I don't tend to have a problem thinking through my options when I am playing but am always interested in seeing the thought processes of others.


Decisions on match point sounds like a great topic! Thanks for the suggestion.
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Greg Nordeng
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rattkin wrote:
Commenting live games is always welcome. What's needed most, I think, is the thinking process behind playing, that's all. Sometimes moves seem trivial or obvious, but they really aren't and there's substantial amount of thought hidden behind - this decision making is usually the crucial difference between increasing chances to win and decreasing chances to win. Just present some options and justify the one you pick.


Thanks for the feedback. I agree with you. I try to do this in my videos with the commentary. I may not be perfect in explaining every decision, but there are a lot to make in the game.

By the way, is this general advice or feedback from what you heard in my videos. Thanks.
 
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Hany Hebisha
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You can't teach the runner how to decide on the tempo, this is an acquired skill. However you can show how to play against some archetypes like how to run against:
* Weyland tag n bag when the corp only takes credits and wait to kill you.
* Cerebral imaging combo decks
* Scorched NBN / Astro train as plan B
* Jinteki PE 1 pointer agenda net damage decks
* HB FA

Maybe use the same runner deck and run against a classic example of each of those corp decks to show the new comers how the runner should adapt to the different corp s/he is facing.

Cheers
Hany
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Palpster
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rattkin wrote:
Commenting live games is always welcome. What's needed most, I think, is the thinking process behind playing, that's all. Sometimes moves seem trivial or obvious, but they really aren't and there's substantial amount of thought hidden behind - this decision making is usually the crucial difference between increasing chances to win and decreasing chances to win. Just present some options and justify the one you pick.


This. I like most videos with commentary that do this. Including the ones where mistakes were made and the commentary is something along the lines of: see, what I should've done in this situation is x, because y.
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Phillip Edwards
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I'm interested in strategy videos on youtube but I dislike the term 'talking points'. It makes me think of politicians and the media and others whose job it is to manipulate the public's viewpoints.
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Nords3x4 wrote:

Thanks for the feedback. I agree with you. I try to do this in my videos with the commentary. I may not be perfect in explaining every decision, but there are a lot to make in the game.

By the way, is this general advice or feedback from what you heard in my videos. Thanks.


Both, I guess. I've seen couple of your videos and while there is some commentary, there's a space for improvement. The main problem with such an approach is that you might not be able to do it live in a timely manner. I tend to comment on my games after the play, backtracking my reasoning why I've played this and not that.
 
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Greg Nordeng
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Robotron5673 wrote:
I'm interested in strategy videos on youtube but I dislike the term 'talking points'. It makes me think of politicians and the media and others whose job it is to manipulate the public's viewpoints.


Well crap, you uncovered my true motive. Perhaps I should scrap the idea now that you all know I am trying to manipulate all of your viewpoints.
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Captain Frisk
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So I just watched "OCTGN Swiss Netrunner Tourney - Round 2, Game 2"

My general feedback is that you should narrate the game as if the viewer isn't also reading the little chat window in the bottom.

There was several places where you were torn between 2 actions (hedge fund or lucky find about half way through as an example). Talk the viewer through why you're wrestling and why you did what you did.

Also - had you decided to break the archer in front of the curtain wall - the strength of the curtain wall would have immediately jumped up - which is something you might have verbalized when trying to decide how to run that Jackson. I felt really bad for you when it turned out to not be an agenda.
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Greg Nordeng
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
So I just watched "OCTGN Swiss Netrunner Tourney - Round 2, Game 2"

My general feedback is that you should narrate the game as if the viewer isn't also reading the little chat window in the bottom.

There was several places where you were torn between 2 actions (hedge fund or lucky find about half way through as an example). Talk the viewer through why you're wrestling and why you did what you did.

Also - had you decided to break the archer in front of the curtain wall - the strength of the curtain wall would have immediately jumped up - which is something you might have verbalized when trying to decide how to run that Jackson. I felt really bad for you when it turned out to not be an agenda.


Now that is feedback I can use. Thank you!
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João Almeida
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What I think we need more in the ANR community is explanations about strategic decision. Why running this server and not that server? Why using 2 and not 3 of that piece of ICE? Why playing this deck and not that deck?

I think we, in general, care too much about "this card is good" and "this card sucks" and forget to think about the context.
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Greg Nordeng
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Hraklea wrote:
What I think we need more in the ANR community is explanations about strategic decision. Why running this server and not that server? Why using 2 and not 3 of that piece of ICE? Why playing this deck and not that deck?

I think we, in general, care too much about "this card is good" and "this card sucks" and forget to think about the context.


Clearly this is important to the community. I have tried to be focused on doing this in previous recordings, but I can put more emphasis on "why". Thanks!
 
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Are there specific scenarios you would like to see played out?


I've only seen a few videos on your channel, so I have no idea how diverse your decklist is, but I'd like to see more identities that are rarely played along with a good showcase of their strengths (and what cards build well into their archetype).

The Professor, Exhile, Whizzard, Weyland BWBI, HB Stronger Together, HB Guarding the Net, etc. I know these aren't considered to be the strongest identities, but all of them function in fairly unique ways that change how we view them.

I'm reminded of professional gamer Justin Wong; Justin Wong is an absolute king at fighting games and when Marvel vs Capcom 3 came out, every player was running the strongest team possible (usually consisting of god characters like Wesker, Taskmaster, Sentinel, Storm, Magneto, etc.) and honestly, watching the tournaments quickly became boring because of how many mirror matches you'd see; people rarely branched out from the popular characters that were already classified early on as "top tier".

So, Justin Wong (on a dare, I think) decides to take the "worst team possible" into a tournament, which consisted of Hsien-Ko, Thor, and Chris Redfield. Lo and behold, even poorly classed heroes with generally "bad" synergy had their own kinks that made them unique, and Justin ended up winning a few major tournaments with this D-classed team, taking the fighting game world by surprise. And from it, I think he and other pro's started looking at these characters (and the rest of the roster) a little differently.

In Netrunner, it's dangerously easy to take a card at face value and think "it sucks" or "Account Siphon is better"; but rarely do these things actually get playtested and toyed with. I think there's a spot for every card in the game; some may be very limited at the moment due to some "pieces" that have yet to be released and some may have "better" alternatives. But I think there is strength that comes with playing in a unique fashion and having that element of surprise as well. I dunno, food for thought. I'd just like to see more underappreciated cards/identities hit the spotlight

Quote:
What are weaknesses in your game that you would like to shore up?


Timing. Especially as the Runner, there are 10 things I want to do, but I have the Credits/Clicks to do maybe 2-3 of those things. What should I prioritize? Early game should I be aggressive? Or is it okay to "turtle" a little and build up some economy. Should I install stuff only when I need it? I don't want to give away my breakers to the Corp, but installing now may save me Clicks and Credits I need for a run next turn. Against Jinteki, installing sooner than later is better since you could lose it from your hand at any moment. But running breakerless also has advantages against program trashing ICE. I might have decent stuff in my hand, but I know there are better options in my deck somewhere; do I spend clicks "digging" for it or play with what I got?

I'm not sure how you'd organize an episode or session around that; I'm sure it's something that becomes more fluid as I become more experienced. But I think discussing all the options in your hand before you choose one would help players get inside your head a little more; you could explain why you chose a specific action at that point, even if there are plenty of other tempting decisions available.
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JPG
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rattkin wrote:
Commenting live games is always welcome. What's needed most, I think, is the thinking process behind playing, that's all. Sometimes moves seem trivial or obvious, but they really aren't and there's substantial amount of thought hidden behind - this decision making is usually the crucial difference between increasing chances to win and decreasing chances to win. Just present some options and justify the one you pick.


Also this.

I think talking through the thought process is the best way for new players to see this process and perhaps relate it to situations in the future. I enjoy the casts of players who do this so much, that I tend to exclusively follow these streams only.
 
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Greg Nordeng
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BreadRising wrote:
Quote:
Are there specific scenarios you would like to see played out?


I've only seen a few videos on your channel, so I have no idea how diverse your decklist is, but I'd like to see more identities that are rarely played along with a good showcase of their strengths (and what cards build well into their archetype).

The Professor, Exhile, Whizzard, Weyland BWBI, HB Stronger Together, HB Guarding the Net, etc. I know these aren't considered to be the strongest identities, but all of them function in fairly unique ways that change how we view them.

I'm reminded of professional gamer Justin Wong; Justin Wong is an absolute king at fighting games and when Marvel vs Capcom 3 came out, every player was running the strongest team possible (usually consisting of god characters like Wesker, Taskmaster, Sentinel, Storm, Magneto, etc.) and honestly, watching the tournaments quickly became boring because of how many mirror matches you'd see; people rarely branched out from the popular characters that were already classified early on as "top tier".

So, Justin Wong (on a dare, I think) decides to take the "worst team possible" into a tournament, which consisted of Hsien-Ko, Thor, and Chris Redfield. Lo and behold, even poorly classed heroes with generally "bad" synergy had their own kinks that made them unique, and Justin ended up winning a few major tournaments with this D-classed team, taking the fighting game world by surprise. And from it, I think he and other pro's started looking at these characters (and the rest of the roster) a little differently.

In Netrunner, it's dangerously easy to take a card at face value and think "it sucks" or "Account Siphon is better"; but rarely do these things actually get playtested and toyed with. I think there's a spot for every card in the game; some may be very limited at the moment due to some "pieces" that have yet to be released and some may have "better" alternatives. But I think there is strength that comes with playing in a unique fashion and having that element of surprise as well. I dunno, food for thought. I'd just like to see more underappreciated cards/identities hit the spotlight

Quote:
What are weaknesses in your game that you would like to shore up?


Timing. Especially as the Runner, there are 10 things I want to do, but I have the Credits/Clicks to do maybe 2-3 of those things. What should I prioritize? Early game should I be aggressive? Or is it okay to "turtle" a little and build up some economy. Should I install stuff only when I need it? I don't want to give away my breakers to the Corp, but installing now may save me Clicks and Credits I need for a run next turn. Against Jinteki, installing sooner than later is better since you could lose it from your hand at any moment. But running breakerless also has advantages against program trashing ICE. I might have decent stuff in my hand, but I know there are better options in my deck somewhere; do I spend clicks "digging" for it or play with what I got?

I'm not sure how you'd organize an episode or session around that; I'm sure it's something that becomes more fluid as I become more experienced. But I think discussing all the options in your hand before you choose one would help players get inside your head a little more; you could explain why you chose a specific action at that point, even if there are plenty of other tempting decisions available.


Awesome! BTW, I do play some different ID's in my games. It depends on if its for a competitive game or not, but for example I get to show off a pretty decent BWBI deck.
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Daniel Wray
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HHebisha wrote:
You can't teach the runner how to decide on the tempo, this is an acquired skill. However you can show how to play against some archetypes like how to run against:
* Weyland tag n bag when the corp only takes credits and wait to kill you.
* Cerebral imaging combo decks
* Scorched NBN / Astro train as plan B
* Jinteki PE 1 pointer agenda net damage decks
* HB FA

Maybe use the same runner deck and run against a classic example of each of those corp decks to show the new comers how the runner should adapt to the different corp s/he is facing.

Cheers
Hany


This is a fantastic idea for a series. For a tournament deck to shine, the deck and the pilot must be ready to deal with a variety of strong decks and opponents. Showing how the card balance in a deck has been finely tuned to have strong options against a wide variety of opponents would be terribly informative.

I've seen a number of examples of how X deck build tears apart Y common opposition, but it's the ability to deal with a wide range of threats that makes a deck tournament viable. I think how to make the difficult deck and play choices are what many people need to elevate their play.

My suggestion might be to do one runner deck, like suggested above, and show how it works against the most common corps styles. Then, choose a corp deck and face the variety of runner threats.

The point would not be that this runner deck and that corp deck are the ones to play, but focusing on why the choices make sense in the context of a finely tuned deck. The combination of card decisions and play strategy would be enlightening (and create great discussion, too).
 
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Shane Ruman
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+1 for the how to play against the archetypes podcast ( there have been a few threads would provide extra info including one I started a few weeks ago in hopes of starting a wiki section ... ah, procrastination, you're always there for me ).

Additional ideas that came to me:

- Analysis of whether an installed, unexposed card is something worthwhile running or not. The most obvious case is discerning a trap since they can decide a game (Aggressive Secretary have won me a few). Jinteki has always been popular in the Toronto meta and soon it will be big everywhere so this will become an increasing important skill. Plus, given the amount of credits runners have dumped into "you're in ... just an adonis / eve, sorry about that 7 credits to get in, want to pay 5 more?", I would say that the decision is also important for "just assets" in a tight game. My shamelessly copied version of RedCoats pretty much lives on this strategy through the mid-game as I've given up trying to keep any runner out of anything that really want to get into.

- Determining when to pressure HQ. For some decks it's obvious but for others it's mostly a decision point on the statistics of agenda drawing and whether the draw rate vs. play rate makes it a reasonable chance they're flooded. Probably a shorter topic but important given it might take 2+ runs on even a fairly flooded hand and each one usually costs a pretty penny (given the all pervasive fear of account siphon). Also, it's one I could personally use help on as I always balk on the cost then shudder when my opponent tells me stories of the 80% agenda hands they held for 10 turns after.
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I have enjoyed your videos and would love to see more in-depth commentary as well. If you're able to get a talented buddy to spectate and get on Ventrillo/Skype, it'd be nice to hear a strategic discourse between the two of you. Sneakysly does this and it's nice to get a two-way conversation about pros and cons of each decision, and often the other individual highlights opposing options that he may not have thought of (even with two people's opinions, I often find myself disagreeing with both and electing a third option).
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Greg Nordeng
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that is all good stuff, thank you everybody. I am going to try some new things in my videos all of which may or may not be good, but if you are someone who watches my videos please let me know what you like or don't like and I will continue to get better and make changes that will hopefully help you all. I am doing this for the community so any feedback I can get to help you guys get more value of these videos is what I'm aiming for, thank you for all the feedback so far keep it coming.
 
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Daniel Wray
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Quote:
This is a fantastic idea for a series.


I had another thought to add. If someone does a series that focuses on a single Corp/Runner deck, start the series with a breakdown of the deck, overall strategies and choices of the cards. Then when you face the various threats and situations later in the series, you can reference those choices, give alternate options that might do the same or similar job, strengths and weaknesses of those choices, etc. I think it would be a great way to logically start and tie the whole series together.

I know it's a tall order, but it would be fascinating to see someone take on such a series. I can think of several contributors on BGG that have the Netrunner chops to pull it off. Greg, your Red Coats deck would be a great focus for such a series.
 
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Jeremy Hager
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I really enjoy your videos so far.

A topic that I'd like to see is maybe approaches to taking full advantage of the Psi Ice coming up, maybe in and out of Jinteki faction, if the latter is possible. I'm interested, because I'd like to make a Jinteki psi deck after the expansion
 
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