Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
55 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

One Night Ultimate Werewolf» Forums » Rules

Subject: Problem with the Tanner rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Tim Backhouse
United Kingdom
Norwich
flag msg tools
I've come across a couple of odd situations with the tanner in play:

1) In a 5 player game with 2 villagers, 2 werewolves and 1 tanner. The 2 villagers have discovered both the werewolves and decided to vote for one of them, and the 2 werewolves have decided to vote for one of the villagers. Then the tanner has no chance of winning but can use their vote to decide which team wins.

In this situation we decided the tanner's vote doesn't count and so the villagers win.

2) In a 5 player game with 4 villagers and 1 tanner. The villagers have decided to tie the vote as they believe the werewolves are in the middle. The tanner could choose to kill a villager so that no one wins.

Again, we say the tanner's vote doesn't count and so the villagers win (except if there are undiscovered werewolves in play).

Has anyone else come across these situations? Are there any official rules that I've missed?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Peters Unrau
Canada
Kitchener
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
T1m0thy wrote:
1) In a 5 player game with 2 villagers, 2 werewolves and 1 tanner. The 2 villagers have discovered both the werewolves and decided to vote for one of them, and the 2 werewolves have decided to vote for one of the villagers. Then the tanner has no chance of winning but can use their vote to decide which team wins.

In this situation we decided the tanner's vote doesn't count and so the villagers win.


Not sure why you'd allow the Werewolves' vote to count then either since they decide whether or not the Tanner wins by voting or not voting for the Tanner. In a five-minute game I would suggest that king-making is probably not a very big problem.

T1m0thy wrote:
2) In a 5 player game with 4 villagers and 1 tanner. The villagers have decided to tie the vote as they believe the werewolves are in the middle. The tanner could choose to kill a villager so that no one wins.

Again, we say the tanner's vote doesn't count and so the villagers win (except if there are undiscovered werewolves in play).


Again, the villagers could vote for the Tanner so that someone wins. Why not discard their vote if they refuse to get on board? The fact that it goes both ways would suggest that having no winner is a reasonable outcome. I don't perceive this to be a big problem in a five-minute game.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Is it somehow fair for the Villagers to win because they have majority? Why can't everyone lose? Why do you have to force a winner?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PrairieBoy wrote:


Not sure why you'd allow the Werewolves' vote to count then either since they decide whether or not the Tanner wins by voting or not voting for the Tanner.

Yes, but they at least they can't stop the village from winning.


[/q]Again, the villagers could vote for the Tanner so that someone wins. Why not discard their vote if they refuse to get on board? The fact that it goes both ways would suggest that having no winner is a reasonable outcome. I don't perceive this to be a big problem in a five-minute game.[/q]

The problem is that the village effectively CAN'T win against a Tanner with no wolves, while the Tanner CAN win. The change just makes it possible for both sides.


Just because a problem is small doesn't mean it isn't worth fixing (especially if the fix is simple, as in this case)

We always play where the Tanner's vote doesn't count. Fixes a lot of issues and doesn't actually handicap the Tanner in any way since his vote will never help him win.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
a1bert wrote:
Is it somehow fair for the Villagers to win because they have majority? Why can't everyone lose? Why do you have to force a winner?


I think the point is villagers should have a chance to win regardless of how cards are dealt out, and villagers should definitely win if they successfully deduce all the roles.

It's fine for their to be no winner (and still possible with the suggested tweaks) but in the rules as written, there are scenarios where only one person even has a chance.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MasterDinadan wrote:
I think the point is villagers should have a chance to win regardless of how cards are dealt out

But they do have even in the first case, albeit a very small one, because everyone can still get only one vote. They don't know who the Tanner will be voting for, but there is still a chance for them to tie the vote and win.

MasterDinadan wrote:
and villagers should definitely win if they successfully deduce all the roles.

Do they have all have to agree? Or does everyone get a guess, and you check at the end of the game which players were correct, and those players win with whomever were the real winners? Do only villagers get a guess? But how do you know for sure who are the villagers? Can you take part in the guessing if you were a werewolf, but was turned villager during the night?

devil
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Hunt
England
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Would changing the tanner's role to "If, at the end of the day, there are werewolves in the village, the Tanner needs to be lynched to win. If there are no werewolves, the Tanner is treated like a villager." solve the issues?

That way, if it's a peaceful village the Tanner will want to co-operate but otherwise still acts like the current Tanner.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That solves the no-win scenario, but is more complicated than (and maybe less interesting than) just dropping the tanners votes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xenothon Stelnicki
United States
Gainesville
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, you've got some problems, bud. First, there shouldn't be 4 villagers; there are only 3. From my perspective, tanner shouldn't even be in a five player game unless you've got really advances players and are just screwing around for the hell of it. Honestly, to make the most of the tanner, you really only want him in when you also have the minion; the chicanery that creates is just sweet.

My suggested 5-player setups would be:

2 wolves
1 seer
1 robba
1 troublemaker
1 villager
1 insomniac
1 drunk

2 wolves
1 seer
1 robba
1 troublemaker
1 minion
1 tanner
1 drunk

2 wolves
1 seer
1 robba
1 troublemaker
2 masons
1 minion

It sounds like you're playing with a custom set. Villagers are so boring! I'd suggest getting back to the core characters and don't worry about house-ruling. The more you play, the better everyone will get, and the game will really blossom for you. The occasional, "Oh, god- you accidentally caused us all to lose," moments will strengthen everyone's play and make for much better games later.

Edit: As an aside, in your first example, you have really poor play from your tanner, even with the screwed up role selection. If we have a whole army of villagers and one "outsider", it just takes the slightest hint that something's not right and they should be lynching him. Usually people anticipate overly suicidal play from a tanner, so he just has to act ever so slightly out of sync with everyone else and they should have him pegged as a wolf. Even statistically, the right move is to blast him as you have two wolves and only one tanner. That should ahve been an easy tanner win with even mediocre play.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MasterDinadan wrote:
That solves the no-win scenario, but is more complicated than (and maybe less interesting than) just dropping the tanners votes.

The simplest is to drop Tanner if you don't like to include him.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
a1bert wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
I think the point is villagers should have a chance to win regardless of how cards are dealt out

But they do have even in the first case, albeit a very small one, because everyone can still get only one vote. They don't know who the Tanner will be voting for, but there is still a chance for them to tie the vote and win.

MasterDinadan wrote:
and villagers should definitely win if they successfully deduce all the roles.

Do they have all have to agree? Or does everyone get a guess, and you check at the end of the game which players were correct, and those players win with whomever were the real winners? Do only villagers get a guess? But how do you know for sure who are the villagers? Can you take part in the guessing if you were a werewolf, but was turned villager during the night?

devil


The chance is VERY small (because villagers cant coordinate with each other) and there's no strategy to improve it. It's just a (heavily biased) coin toss.

You might have misunderstood my second point. I'm not saying there should be some kind of alternate victory check where villagers guess things - I'm saying the rules should be made such that the villagers will win if they all get it right, even if they don't all know that they all got it right.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
xen911 wrote:
Well, you've got some problems, bud. First, there shouldn't be 4 villagers; there are only 3. From my perspective, tanner shouldn't even be in a five player game unless you've got really advances players and are just screwing around for the hell of it. Honestly, to make the most of the tanner, you really only want him in when you also have the minion; the chicanery that creates is just sweet.

My suggested 5-player setups would be:

2 wolves
1 seer
1 robba
1 troublemaker
1 villager
1 insomniac
1 drunk

2 wolves
1 seer
1 robba
1 troublemaker
1 minion
1 tanner
1 drunk

2 wolves
1 seer
1 robba
1 troublemaker
2 masons
1 minion

It sounds like you're playing with a custom set. Villagers are so boring! I'd suggest getting back to the core characters and don't worry about house-ruling. The more you play, the better everyone will get, and the game will really blossom for you. The occasional, "Oh, god- you accidentally caused us all to lose," moments will strengthen everyone's play and make for much better games later.


He means four village characters (it can be any of them, doesn't matter)

And the problem here is not "oops, I accidentally made us lose," but rather "well, we have all of the correct info and still we can't win."

Do you think the game would be fun if there was a character that says "you always lose."? That is basically what happens to the village team in these scenarios.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xenothon Stelnicki
United States
Gainesville
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MasterDinadan wrote:
well, we have all of the correct info and still we can't win...Do you think the game would be fun if there was a character that says "you always lose."? That is basically what happens to the village team in these scenarios.


Yes, I do, actually. This happens from time to time to each faction (wolves, vills, tanner). In a 5-minute game from, "Everyone, close your eyes," to, "Tim'es up," it doesn't matter. I LOVE playing this game with skilled players (i.e. socially skilled at influencing others) who are also excellent at deduction...or a mix of players who have more social intelligence and some who are engineer-types. The stronger the deductive skills at the table, the sweeter it is when you can pull off huge wins where that deduction was led down the primrose path. One game sets up the next!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Goo
United States
Yorba Linda
California
flag msg tools
badge
I have become my own island state. A ravaged, war-torn land where nothing grows and the horizons are bleak.
Avatar
mb
laugh

"Robba"

laugh
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Peters Unrau
Canada
Kitchener
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
a1bert wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
That solves the no-win scenario, but is more complicated than (and maybe less interesting than) just dropping the tanners votes.

The simplest is to drop Tanner if you don't like to include him.


Which is essentially what stripping the Tanner of his/her vote does - it takes the Tanner out of the game.

By design the Tanner can never vote in their own interest. If the role wasn't meant to have a vote that could impact other teams it wouldn't have been given one in the first place.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charlie Theel
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PrairieBoy wrote:

By design the Tanner can never vote in their own interest. If the role wasn't meant to have a vote that could impact other teams it wouldn't have been given one in the first place.


Not true. Tanner can feign Wolf, vote for Hunter, Hunter kills Tanner. Tanner high fives himself.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PrairieBoy wrote:

By design the Tanner can never vote in their own interest. If the role wasn't meant to have a vote that could impact other teams it wouldn't have been given one in the first place.


You are right - the rules are very clear and the designer has said it many times in other places.

The thread has kind of evolved into discussion about variants, but this isn't the place for it. I'll just leave it alone.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron Reaser
United States
Morgantown
West Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There have been several threads where people have issues with the Tanner voting, at least three or four in the last month I think. (I could be exaggerating.) Generally there is a complaint that the Tanner ruins the vote in certain very constrained edge conditions.

To me it seems that it's necessary as part of the Tanner role to allow for scenarios where the Tanner can muck everything up for the villagers-- that's the point of being the Tanner. Allowing those edge conditions to exist strengthens the uniqueness of the Tanner. Adding special case rules to adjust the Tanner makes the Tanner role more like a butt monkey. Rather than the rare possibility that the village team ends up with a ruined vote, the Tanner is almost guaranteed not to have any reason to participate in the game.

I think if you don't like the possible edge conditions that the Tanner can introduce, then you don't like the Tanner role itself and shouldn't include it in the game.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bloodcinder wrote:

I think if you don't like the possible edge conditions that the Tanner can introduce, then you don't like the Tanner role itself and shouldn't include it in the game.


Well, I don't agree with this at all. There are a lot of reasons to like the Tanner in general without liking a certain specific scenarios that can occur because of of the Tanner's voting. Your suggestion is to throw out the character completely because he ruins the game a fraction of the time?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the OP's scenario, how do Wolves still know they're wolves? How does Tanner still know he's a tanner? None of those things can be assumed, so there is no problem. If a Robber and/or Troublemaker is in play, those things are almost inevitably false.

Also, for the record, I play with Tanner at 3-5p all the time. Tanner is a fantastic role, always. Typical 3p roleset:

Wolfx2
Minion
Tanner
Robber
Troublemaker

CRAZY GAMES AHEAD
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron Reaser
United States
Morgantown
West Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MasterDinadan wrote:
Bloodcinder wrote:

I think if you don't like the possible edge conditions that the Tanner can introduce, then you don't like the Tanner role itself and shouldn't include it in the game.


Well, I don't agree with this at all. There are a lot of reasons to like the Tanner in general without liking a certain specific scenarios that can occur because of of the Tanner's voting. Your suggestion is to throw out the character completely because he ruins the game a fraction of the time?

No, my suggestion is that if people think he ruins the game a fraction of the time then they should throw him out. I don't think he ruins the game (because I don't accept the premise that the rare edge conditions need to be fixed), so I wouldn't throw him out.

EDIT: To elaborate, I think that when "the Tanner ruins the game," the village players should just say "better luck next time" because it's a 5 minute game. But if that's not enough to please a group, I would suggest that they don't appreciate the Tanner role for what it is and should not include it, rather than including it and limiting its abilities so that the person who ends up playing the Tanner is the one who is inconvenienced for 5 minutes.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
How is the Tanner inconvenienced? There is practically no scenario where the Tanner's own vote causes him to win when he would have otherwise lost.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron Reaser
United States
Morgantown
West Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Tanner player (and/or the player who becomes the Tanner) can be inconvenienced by having his vote ignored, or else the village players can be inconvenienced by having their votes be de facto irrelevant in a "ruined for the villagers" scenario.

It seems to me that in any one of the "ruined" scenarios with the Tanner, one or more people will be made obsolete for the round, whether it's the village players or the Tanner. I don't see the point in creating a special rule for a scenario that rarely if ever will occur when many different scenarios could be considered equally broken.

It's such a short experience that I think people should appreciate the frustration of finding out that even though they played well they could not have won the round anyway, then shuffle and play again. I feel like the "ruined" scenarios are only problematic if the game is taken too seriously or the rounds are run for way too long.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and every group is welcome to play games with whatever rules they see fit. But from an outside perspective, this is why I don't understand the need for a Tanner fix.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
But the Tanner isn't really inconvenienced by losing his vote. Given the choice, he probably wouldn't even want to vote.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MasterDinadan wrote:
But the Tanner isn't really inconvenienced by losing his vote. Given the choice, he probably wouldn't even want to vote.
Again, the "Tanner" isn't always the Tanner! If you see Tanner before Night Phase, you have NO IDEA if you're actually still Tanner after Night Phase. You need to deduce if you have been robbed or TMade then make sure the suspect new Tanner doesn't get any votes, so a "Tanner"'s vote is still very important for them to be thinking about.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.