Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
22 Posts

Power Grid» Forums » General

Subject: Not convinced rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Steram Shaw
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
My wife and I have recently started playing this, borrowed from friends, we both really want to like the game which we do, but every game so far (4) has had the same pattern, whoever builds one more city than the other in the 1st couple of rounds seems to win, played last night wife built 2 cities in first round I could only build one, it just felt from that moment I was never going to win, she had more income every round after. I couldn't build enough cities than her to power to get the income, we really like the game play, it's just the ending,seems to be obvious who's won early in the game, any advice. Thanks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander Fitz
Germany
Wiesbaden
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I can´t confirm that impression. The possiblity to purchase Powerplants and ressources often negates the lead as the player with the most cities at the start might not be able to power them. Further I think PG is more fun with more players. The Robots add to this as it turns the game into a 3 player game
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
It is likely you're making some rule error (a common problem for new players); I suggest browsing through Power Grid FAQ. E.g. did you remember to adjust the player order immediately after the first turn auction? Are you doing each phase in the correct player order? (Whoever has more cities should be paying more for resources, for example.)

Agreed with Openair that in any case the game is better with more than 2 players.

Also you accidentally double-posted, so I suggest deleting the duplicate:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1162259/not-convinced
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Denise Lavely
United States
Carmel
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
+1 to don't play Power Grid with only two players. Power Grid is one of my two 10 rated games, and I'd never play it with less than 4. It IS a great game, but you have to have the right player count.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♬♪♪ ♫ ♩ ♫♫♪ ♩♬♪ ♫
Australia
MURRUMBEENA
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
All reality is a game. Physics at its most fundamental, the very fabric of our universe, results directly from the interaction of certain fairly simple rules, and chance... (Iain Banks)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You have posted this [thread=1162259]twice[/thread]

Are you playing with just 2 people? Because that is really not the best way to experience PG. The issue you have encountered is significantly exacerbated if there are just two of you. PG really needs 4+ to shine, or addition of the (somewhat clunky) robots expansion. With more players the "leaders" are pushed ever further back in turn order, and pay higher costs, get blocked, and have inferior opportunities during auctions.

TL/DR: Your problem seems to be common for new players. You should play with 4 or more. Greater experience with the turn order mechanism will see you exploiting your turn order position to beat the "lead" player.

PG is a brilliant game - stick it out and play with the people who leant you the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sonny Blount
New Zealand
flag msg tools
out to lunch
badge
same place I eat at
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Power Grid is great 2 players. I have played over 100 2 player games of it and would much rather player 2 players than 5 or 6 (4 players is the sweet spot though).

You have to understand it thoroughly though to really know what is going on with each move. It is a very good measure of how well you know the game. You are much less likely to beat a more skilled player one on one than in a 4er. This is one reason why 2 player Power Grid is more popular with veterans.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
"L'état, c'est moi."
Canada
Vancouver
BC
flag msg tools
admin
designer
Roger's Reviews: check out my reviews page, right here on BGG!
badge
Caution: May contain wargame like substance
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not wild about this game with only two players. However, the robots expansion helps throw enough wrenches into the works that it makes two players fun.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Corban
Canada
Newmarket
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sonny Blount wrote:
This is one reason why 2 player Power Grid is more popular with veterans.


This sentence makes me think you are intentionally trying to mislead here.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chaddyboy
United States
Olathe
Kansas
flag msg tools
admin
designer
Bloooooop.
badge
Bluuuuuurp.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Remember that if you have less cities, it means you're going first in the phases where you can screw over the leader. Make sure you're getting power plants that use the same resources, so you can drive up the prices of resources. Build in the spaces where it is cheapest for the leader to build. That minor income advantage is negated pretty quickly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam Carroll
United States
Urbana
Illinois
flag msg tools
Soli Deo Gloria!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sonny Blount wrote:
Power Grid is great 2 players. I have played over 100 2 player games of it and would much rather player 2 players than 5 or 6 (4 players is the sweet spot though).


I believe you, but you're the first person I've ever heard expressing this view. I like it best with 4 or 5; I've tried it with 2 and found the auctions very dull.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
dcorban wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
This is one reason why 2 player Power Grid is more popular with veterans.


This sentence makes me think you are intentionally trying to mislead here.

Indeed the suggested # of players poll shows only 1% saying it's best with 2 players, and only 26% saying it's even recommended with 2 players.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sonny Blount
New Zealand
flag msg tools
out to lunch
badge
same place I eat at
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dcorban wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
This is one reason why 2 player Power Grid is more popular with veterans.


This sentence makes me think you are intentionally trying to mislead here.


The sentence is not intended to mean that 2 players is the preferred player count for veteran players, but that veteran players like 2 player games more than moderately experienced players.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sonny Blount
New Zealand
flag msg tools
out to lunch
badge
same place I eat at
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
dcorban wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
This is one reason why 2 player Power Grid is more popular with veterans.


This sentence makes me think you are intentionally trying to mislead here.

Indeed the suggested # of players poll shows only 1% saying it's best with 2 players, and only 26% saying it's even recommended with 2 players.


I think the vast majority of respondents to that poll are unlikely to be experienced players.

That poll also puts 5 players just ahead of 4 players which is very off as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sonny Blount
New Zealand
flag msg tools
out to lunch
badge
same place I eat at
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
spartax wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
Power Grid is great 2 players. I have played over 100 2 player games of it and would much rather player 2 players than 5 or 6 (4 players is the sweet spot though).


I believe you, but you're the first person I've ever heard expressing this view. I like it best with 4 or 5; I've tried it with 2 and found the auctions very dull.


It's a common opinion amongst the people I know as experienced players, they simply don't post on PG BGG forums.

I think the thousands of 2 player games played by veterans on BSW shows the popularity of the player count. You can usually get whatever player count you are looking for there and the most played goes 4>3>2>5>6.


Name Games Played

mwigor 1447
kpsp83 1242
jurist 845
Witchy 607
otalo 538
*diego* 517
Polli 491
samdias 391
oberibb 368
UglyRooks 366
mobo 331
Timm 330
Karotka 330
Sozialdemokrat 290
YMSY 280

Game No. of players
Funkenschlag = 2
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fraser
Australia
Melbourne
flag msg tools
admin
designer
Back in the days when there were less maps we played every map back to back
badge
Ooh a little higher, now a bit to the left, a little more, a little more, just a bit more. Oooh yes, that's the spot!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sonny Blount wrote:
russ wrote:
dcorban wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
This is one reason why 2 player Power Grid is more popular with veterans.


This sentence makes me think you are intentionally trying to mislead here.

Indeed the suggested # of players poll shows only 1% saying it's best with 2 players, and only 26% saying it's even recommended with 2 players.


I think the vast majority of respondents to that poll are unlikely to be experienced players.

Personally I would be of the opinion that the majority of respondents are experienced players.

Playing via BSW and face to face are different though. In face to face situations I rarely play with less than four unless there are not enough people around. On BSW I would play with two players, but face to face I would be more likely to pull out another game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sonny Blount
New Zealand
flag msg tools
out to lunch
badge
same place I eat at
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Karlsen wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
russ wrote:
dcorban wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
This is one reason why 2 player Power Grid is more popular with veterans.


This sentence makes me think you are intentionally trying to mislead here.

Indeed the suggested # of players poll shows only 1% saying it's best with 2 players, and only 26% saying it's even recommended with 2 players.


I think the vast majority of respondents to that poll are unlikely to be experienced players.

Personally I would be of the opinion that the majority of respondents are experienced players.

Playing via BSW and face to face are different though. In face to face situations I rarely play with less than four unless there are not enough people around. On BSW I would play with two players, but face to face I would be more likely to pull out another game.


I agree it is different playing FTF than on BSW. I dial back the calculation and resort more to intuition FTF, it takes more effort to take in the entire game state. If it affects player count I think FTF is skewed towards lower play counts because of this. I play better FTF relative to BSW at 2 or 3 than at 5 or 6 for example because of the additional difficulty of reading the game state.

It's going to depend on our definitions of experienced. I think you need a few hundred games under your belt before people usually see most of what is happening in a game of PG.

I only have about 40 games in my collection, but Power Grid is at the top of the pile of games I would pull out to lock horns with someone 2 player. The only thing that prevents me playing more 2 player ftf (and I do play it ftf this way every so often) is quality of opposition.

If I was to turn up to a convention that had many 2 player tournaments such as RFTG, Netrunner, Dominion, Agricola, Brass, and Power Grid was amongst them I would definitely enter a 2 player PG tourny at the expense of all the others.

Perhaps if I had 1000 plays of the other games that would be different but the 2 player game is certainly there in PG and if I had another person in my various game groups who got good at PG I would certainly want to take them on 2 player rather than in just a mixed group with journeymen.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Brown
United States
Brandon
Florida
flag msg tools
mb
I agree that there are a lot of 2 player games happening on BSW. Player skill is even more likely to win in that scenario. I think having more players is more fun, though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Corban
Canada
Newmarket
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd argue that two player requires a lot less skill. Auctions are essentially nullified. There is no racing for connections. Resources are virtually unlimited. It's not even a game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge
Switzerland
Lausanne
Vaud
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dcorban wrote:
Resources are virtually unlimited.

On the contrary; each player has 4 plants *AND* the resource replenishment rate is lower. They add up to bigger contention.

The 2er race for connections is a different race. In 3+ player games you race to secure your cheap area. In 2ers you race to get more step 1 cities.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sonny Blount
New Zealand
flag msg tools
out to lunch
badge
same place I eat at
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dcorban wrote:
I'd argue that two player requires a lot less skill. Auctions are essentially nullified. There is no racing for connections. Resources are virtually unlimited. It's not even a game.


Auctions work the same as with larger player counts. You bid up a plant to what it is worth comparative with your alternative options. In every player count at least 1 player gets an uncontested plant for cost every auction. In 2 player you more control to manipulate turn order with plant selection and builds to be the bottom player when you need to be.

The race for connections is amplified. You are very likely to jump build earlier, and also to build out yr early cities sooner than you would in greater player counts because you have to get to every city on the map and every one that you beat your opponent to is a 10 electro swing.

2 oil per round in stage 2! That is tight. Only 1 oil plant can run sustainably until stage 3. Stage 3 turn order is very important to control resources as you are more likely to get starved in a 2er because when you starve your opponent a 3rd player is unable to finish the game.

Because of the extended number of turns efficiency of plants is more important and particularly early in the game I will go further out of my way to attack fuel using the 5, 8, and 21 plants in a 2er. Early green plants tend to go for a bit more as well. Due to the 21 city cap most competitive games come down to a close money race, being efficient through out the game is required to beat a player that is not going to hand you mistakes to attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Sonny Blount wrote:
dcorban wrote:
I'd argue that two player requires a lot less skill. Auctions are essentially nullified. There is no racing for connections. Resources are virtually unlimited. It's not even a game.


Auctions work the same as with larger player counts. You bid up a plant to what it is worth comparative with your alternative options.

That is true as long as both players are bidding, i.e. for the first plant in that turn, but:
Quote:
In every player count at least 1 player gets an uncontested plant for cost every auction.

But that's 1 out of n players; 1/n is maximized when n=2. The proportion of uncontested (and sometimes lucky great) plants is highest with 2 players.

I don't think auctions are "essentially nullified" in 2-player, but clearly a higher proportion of plants get purchased uncontested than happens with more players in the game.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sonny Blount
New Zealand
flag msg tools
out to lunch
badge
same place I eat at
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
dcorban wrote:
I'd argue that two player requires a lot less skill. Auctions are essentially nullified. There is no racing for connections. Resources are virtually unlimited. It's not even a game.


Auctions work the same as with larger player counts. You bid up a plant to what it is worth comparative with your alternative options.

That is true as long as both players are bidding, i.e. for the first plant in that turn, but:
Quote:
In every player count at least 1 player gets an uncontested plant for cost every auction.

But that's 1 out of n players; 1/n is maximized when n=2. The proportion of uncontested (and sometimes lucky great) plants is highest with 2 players.

I don't think auctions are "essentially nullified" in 2-player, but clearly a higher proportion of plants get purchased uncontested than happens with more players in the game.


There is a difference between what I meant by 'uncontested' and 'lucky drop'. Most uncontested plants are those passed by the other players. Drops aren't really 'lucky', they are a product of risk management which is the same decision you are making in every player count of PG. In 2 player though the other player is only going to benefit from risks you took, not somebody else's. You make sure the 'lucky' drops come in the bureaucracy phase between rounds so that the auctions are contested.

In every auction in 3-6 player games there is a person who is 2nd to last in the auction, and a player who is last in the auction. There is always a player with extra pressure not to buy because it gives an uncontested drop to the last player.

In 2 player you are going to be involved in a higher proportion of the auctions, the most you can miss out on in a turn is 1 auction, whatever comes after that you are contesting the next round. In a 5 player game you could buy the 29 from the top and have the 30,31,32 all come after it without you getting a look in on any of the auctions.

But you avoid giving away likely good drops in any player count of PG if you are paying attention. You manuever yourself to the bottom of turn order if you want to buy a plant without giving one away. For example if the 13 looks to be coming onto the market backed by the 18, you buy the 5 in the previous auction to remain below the 8 and therefore pick up the 13 from bottom and causing the 18 to be contested in the following round.

2 player games are less susceptible to lucky drops because you play quite a few more rounds and you run a wider plant selection throughout the game. You can afford to react more strongly to what the other player gets than in higher counts where doing so can let a 3rd player benefit. Once your opponent has a good plant you can afford to build plants off the market and risk dropping plants because more good plants become less beneficial t your opponent. The extended arc of a 2 player game allows swings to be balanced out by consistent good play.

The 2 player endgame is less reliant on particular plants in the final stages of the game. Pretty much all 5 player games come down to whoever gets a stage 2 6er (30,31, or 32) before the single round of stage 3 that you usually get. In many 4 player games you will find a 7er drop in the last round making or breaking the game. The only drops which can make your game in a 2er are in stage 1 and you have more time to do something about them. Big early plants also leave holes in a 2er, a 26 or 27 buy against you leaves all the uncontested coal fuel to you.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.