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Subject: Zung Jung Scoring Question rss

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Magister Germanicus
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A scoring question arose last night while playing Zung Jung rules Mahjong. To set things up, we play by standard 3.3 rules, but with the optional Category 11 for Flowers & Seasons, thus making scoring pattern 9.2 "Win on Kong/Flower Replacement" for 10 points, rather than just winning on Kong replacement alone.

Any way, someone went out on a chicken hand, defeating another player who was very close to a 13 Orphans/Terminals hand! Any way, the winner won on a Flower replacement, scoring 10 points thereby, and an additional 8 points for having one proper Flower and 2 improper Flowers. Our question was whether the winner also scored his 1 point for his chicken hand. As far as I can tell, the rules state that a hand that ordinarily would be worth no points, scores 1 point. Well, this hand scored 18 bonus points, but no game points. See what I mean?

We decided to award the 1 point for the chicken hand any way, treating it as scoring pattern 1.4 in the Trivial Patterns category, thus gaining the winner 19 points from each opponent.

What would you have done?
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Chris Schumann
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I would not have scored the 1 point for a no-point win.

I'd wager the official World Series of Mahjong rules would cover something like this (say, having only Robbing the Kong), and I'd also think that would not score the 1 point. After all, there is explicitly NOT any 1-point for a chicken hand in the scoring table.

I imagine Alan Kwan will come along and tell us what he does.
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[potboiler] teamjsa
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A hand with at least one pattern is not a chicken hand. So I think that hand (already with flower tiles and the incidental bonus) cannot get extra one point.

PS. Game Points... Could you explain about it?
 
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Magister Germanicus
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By game points, I mean points scored from patterns you could use to declare Mahjong rather than bonus points you score because you went out. It's similar to the idea of yaku in Riichi...you may score extra han/points for using dora tiles, but they're not game points that would allow one to declare Mahjong.
 
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[potboiler] teamjsa
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Okay, the patterns already determined before going-out. (I guess) But you can go out with a hand contains only one scoring pattern like
Win on Kong, Robbing the Kong, Final Discard, or Blessing of Heaven in Riichi Mahjong.
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Magister Germanicus
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That is true...good point. So I'm leaning now towards no point for the chicken hand as it already scored for winning on Flower replacement and the flowers themselves.
 
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Chris Schumann
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GermanTodd wrote:
By game points, I mean points scored from patterns you could use to declare Mahjong rather than bonus points you score because you went out.

Another reason not to score the 1 point is because there is no such distinction in Zung Jung... probably on purpose.
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Alan Kwan
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It's written in the rules for flower tiles:

"A hand with any bonus tiles is not a chicken hand, and does not get 1 point added for chicken hand."

Chicken hand 1 point is really just a token score so that the hand does not score zero. So if the hand already does not score zero for any reason, the 1 point is not added.

What was not explicitly written was that, "Win on Kong" applies only to Kong replacement and not to flower replacement. (Though this can be inferred if you take the pattern definition literally.) The reason is that flower replacements typically happen much more frequently than Kong replacements in a hand. (Yes, for a similar reason I have no reservations for calling the "Ippatsu" rule in Riichi broken.)

So that hand should score 8 points.
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Magister Germanicus
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Thank you, Alan. That really clears things up!
 
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