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A Touch of Evil: The Supernatural Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Allies taking a wound rss

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R B
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This came up in our game yesterday and I quickly looked but was not able to find an answer.

When an Ally (or Town Elder) takes a Wound, do they die and get removed from the game?
 
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MoonSylver
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Allies & Town Elders are handled differently. Allies who take a Wound are NOT discarded, but they cannot take a Wound for you again until the Wound on them is healed. Think of them as extra Health added onto the Hero.

A Town Elder? If they take a Wound, they are Killed (unless they can take more than one wound, like Lord Handbrook or have cards played on them that allow them to take more than one wound, etc.) & follow all the Rules for Dead Town Elders, Evil Elders, etc.

But they are not removed from the game, as even when dead (or "dead" as the case may be )they may still have an impact on the game due to their Secrets, in some cases turn back up ALIVE & not dead after all, etc.

The only time you EVER remove cards from the game is when you have specific cards that instruct you to do so.
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Chuck Hurd
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When a Town Elder is Killed in a Showdown he is removed from the game entirely.

I'm basing that on this quote from Jason here on BGG, back in the day.

Question: "If an Elder is killed during a showdown does it keep coming back (IE it keeps faking its own death?)."

Answer: "Once killed in a showdown, a Town Elder or an Evil Elder is really dead. They don't take any further part in the game." (Jason Hill 10/1/08 BGG)

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MoonSylver
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Carcking wrote:
When a Town Elder is Killed in a Showdown he is removed from the game entirely.

I'm basing that on this quote from Jason here on BGG, back in the day.

Question: "If an Elder is killed during a showdown does it keep coming back (IE it keeps faking its own death?)."

Answer: "Once killed in a showdown, a Town Elder or an Evil Elder is really dead. They don't take any further part in the game." (Jason Hill 10/1/08 BGG)



I was thinking of encounters outside a Showdown, not really in a Showdown specifically when I wrote my answer.

That said, the question in the quote seemed to be (& it's hard to infer from the way it's phrased) that if an Elder had been "killed" once & then turns out from his Secret(s) to be an Evil Elder who "faked his own death & went to join the Villain" & is killed "again" in a Showdown, does he keep coming back?

In that instance, yes they are "really dead" & "don't take any further part in the game", but either in the rules, nor in the quote from Jason does it specify REMOVING THEM FROM THE GAME, which means take the card(s), put them back in the box, & in no way may they re-enter play.

The reason for the pedantry is there are ways to bring a "dead" Elder "back to life" like "Blood Transfusion" or the "Sign of the Dark Omen" on the Advanced Co-Op Mystery Phase Chart".

In cases like those, even though the Elder was "killed" in a Showdown & was "Dead" I would certainly allow them to return.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Hmmm...Moon Sylver you've given me cause to re-think, especially since both of those mechanics; Blood Transfusion and Sign of the Dark Omen, make a point of indicating that an Evil Elder may not be chosen, as though otherwise, they could be.

Normally, it would never have occurred to me that they could be chosen to come back because they are "really dead" from a Showdown...just as Town Elders would be.

I've always considered the status of a dead Evil Elder to be "killed in a Showdown and removed from the game, put back in the box and does not come out until the next game". That status also included Town Elders killed in a Showdown. The clarification that one Elder can be chosen from that status pool while another cannot changes the status to "killed in a Showdown, but is not necessarily out of play".

We have always played that when a Town Elder is killed in a Showdown he is "really dead" as Jason states and doesn't "take any further part in the game." Therefor, he is removed from the game. But it seems Jason's statement would need to be amended to "They don't take any further part in the game, unless affected later on by some card or mechanic." Jason could have considered that part implied or understood. We'll never know.

There is a case though where a Town Elder could get killed outside of a Showdown and still be removed from the game. That is on the Gargoyle's card under his Monuments of Terror ability. Would a Town Elder be able to come back from that? He apparently got turned to stone, but you could still suppose he faked it and they erected a false monument.

Then this all begs the question; When is "dead" "really dead", as in put back in the box and doesn't come out until next game? Does it ever happen to Town Elders?

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MoonSylver
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All excellent points!

I was too lazy to go back & check until now, but the quote was made in '08, & SW didn't come out until '09, so those mechanics may not have even existed at the time?

On the Blood Transfusion & SotDO both they specify Town Elder (SotDO even makes sure to specify further no Evil Elders). So since an Evil Elder is not a Town Elder any longer, you shouldn't be able to bring them back. (Great idea in a Competitive game though!)

I dug through the card lists looking for other cards that allow you to return a "dead" Elder to life. If there are any I couldn't find them & can't think of any, so these two instances may be the only ones, thus pretty rare.

In the case of the Gargoyle's MoT ability, it does specify the Elder "is not killed but turned to stone", that all of his Secrets are discarded & he is Removed From The Game.

So, no coming back from that.

I would say that unless something happens to specify a "Remove From The Game" a "Dead" Town Elder is considered "Dead" but not "Removed From The Game", thus still eligable to re-enter play. ("A Touch of Evil" the game where even Death may not be permanent!laugh)

As far as I know there is no way to bring Evil Elders back, BUT that doesn't mean there couldn't be one at some point as a card or Villain Ability, so once again, dead but not removed from play (even though unless some way of bringing them back does show up it's really a distinction without a difference at this point...)
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Chuck Hurd
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Good catch on the timing of Jason's answer and the release of Something Wicked! At the time his statement was likely entirely applicable. But now the statement as I took the liberty to amend it would be closer to the mark. Thumbs up man! We will be changing the way we play "really dead".

Good catch also on the Gargoyle card - it does indeed say "instead" of being killed, so it's not applicable in this discussion because the Town Elder is not killed in relevant terms.
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MoonSylver
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Carcking wrote:
Good catch on the timing of Jason's answer and the release of Something Wicked! At the time his statement was likely entirely applicable. But now the statement as I took the liberty to amend it would be closer to the mark. Thumbs up man! We will be changing the way we play "really dead".

Good catch also on the Gargoyle card - it does indeed say "instead" of being killed, so it's not applicable in this discussion because the Town Elder is not killed in relevant terms.


Thanks Chuck. I know I've gotten the occasional ATOE rules question wrong due to my own misinterpretations (the timing of, & ability to use, The Book Of Lore to Cancel Mystery Cards comes readily to mind! ), but felt pretty good about these after went back & double checked to make sure I didn't miss something.
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