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18OE: On the Rails of the Orient Express» Forums » Rules

Subject: star harbour and central circle rss

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Georg Brede
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I´m not sure I understand this 2 privates special ability.

The owner of the RR don´t get revenue from the city, but the city don´t count to the city limit, so I just can pass through? (using the harbour with star harbour)
Mustn´t the owning RR collect revenue from the town, or may it choose?


And no other RR (even with tokens in it) are allowed to collect revenue from this city? But for other RR it counts against the city limit? (reducing the collectible cities by one?)

And yes so far I like the rules very much and can´t wait to play :-)



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Lucas Wan
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ZWS11 wrote:
I´m not sure I understand this 2 privates special ability.

The owner of the RR don´t get revenue from the city, but the city don´t count to the city limit, so I just can pass through? (using the harbour with star harbour)
Mustn´t the owning RR collect revenue from the town, or may it choose?


The owning RR can't collect revenue from the city (not town) where the CC or SH token is placed, it's not an option. So yes, you can just pass through, even if the city is full of other railroad tokens.

ZWS11 wrote:
And no other RR (even with tokens in it) are allowed to collect revenue from this city? But for other RR it counts against the city limit? (reducing the collectible cities by one?)


Other railroads use the city normally. The tokens only apply to the owning railroad's trains. Arguably the wording on this rule (14.5) could be bit better (and the trains instead of and they).

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Eugene van der Pijll
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What happens if the RR already has a token in the port city? Can the RR now choose if the city counts as a stop for a train? Can the RR now run a route in which the port city is its only token, but not count the city?
 
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Mark Frazier
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pijll wrote:
What happens if the RR already has a token in the port city? Can the RR now choose if the city counts as a stop for a train? Can the RR now run a route in which the port city is its only token, but not count the city?


While there's nothing in the rules to cover that situation, I'm unsure as to why you'd want to waste the private token by using it in a city where you already have a RR token. You'd probably be best off to sell the RR token to another of your RRs if you did that.

I'd say what you have above is an acceptable interpretation - president's choice as to whether to count it as a stop.

Edit: See my long post below. I'm overturning my ruling after further examination.
 
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Kelly Krieble
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Maybe if you're hard up to make an OE run and you've got too many cities on the route?
 
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Mark Frazier
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dr_divot wrote:
Maybe if you're hard up to make an OE run and you've got too many cities on the route?


Never say never :)

That's a possibility, as well as trying to make a late game 4D run on a route that you had planned for a 5D (after watching the last 5D get snagged by another railroad and having to settle for a 4D).

 
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Stephe Thomas
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While we're discussing these private companies...

Suppose your company runs a train from Antwerp-Berlin-Constantinople-Athens. You can clearly claim the Orient Express bonus. Now suppose that you have the Star Harbour token in Constantinople and/or the Central Circle token in Berlin, and run that same route, but this time not counting Constantinople and/or Berlin. Is the Orient Express bonus available here?
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Mark Frazier
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maisnestce wrote:
While we're discussing these private companies...

Suppose your company runs a train from Antwerp-Berlin-Constantinople-Athens. You can clearly claim the Orient Express bonus. Now suppose that you have the Star Harbour token in Constantinople and/or the Central Circle token in Berlin, and run that same route, but this time not counting Constantinople and/or Berlin. Is the Orient Express bonus available here?


Can I hire you to read the rules once Rick and I are done with them and to playtest the new 18C2C via Cyberboard when I'm ready? :D

I'll add to the errata something to the effect that the Star Harbor/Central Circle tokens do not permit any side effects when the city is skipped. In other words, no - a run that uses these tokens to skip either of the required cities for an OE run does not qualify as an OE run.

These types of edge cases are bound to arise relating to the Private and Minor powers. There are so many of them and they can interact with each other and the core game mechanics in so many ways that it's inevitable.

In general, when these edge cases arise I'll tend to rule in such a way as to minimize extra rules weight and complexity. While there can always be exceptions, I don't want to introduce an exploit that can unbalance the strength of a private or minor. If the edge case ruling adds value to the game by creating a quality decision without adding more than a sentence or two to the rules, that's the direction I'll go.

The situation regarding Star Harbor and Central Circle appears to be somewhat complex regardless of which way I rule.

If permitting Star Harbor and Central Circle to be played in a city that already has one of the owning RR's tokens, the statement must be made that you can both play the private token in a city with one of the owning RR's tokens, AND the owning RR can play a station token in a city that already has the private token. That, and you have to add sentences to clarify the behavior of the private tokens when they are located in the same city as one of your RR tokens.

If not permitting the private tokens to coexist with RR tokens, the statement must be made that the owning RR cannot play the private token in a city that already has one of its station tokens, and the owning RR can't play a station token in a city that already has one of the Private tokens. No need to write additional rules to conver the situation where the tokens coexist.

That said, I'm going to overturn myself on this particular ruling. Less rules weight.
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Eugene van der Pijll
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Just for fun:

May a minor which has used the Star Harbor private on, say, Lille merge with a major with a token in Lille? (Or the other way around?)
Actually, does the major inherit the minor's Star Harbor token? I don't think this is explicit in the rules, but I would assume so.


Edit to add: I chose Lille, because I also wanted to ask about the interaction with the White Cliffs Ferry... but that will have to wait until I've had time to think that through.
 
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Mark Frazier
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pijll wrote:
Just for fun:

May a minor which has used the Star Harbor private on, say, Lille merge with a major with a token in Lille? (Or the other way around?)
Actually, does the major inherit the minor's Star Harbor token? I don't think this is explicit in the rules, but I would assume so.


Edit to add: I chose Lille, because I also wanted to ask about the interaction with the White Cliffs Ferry... but that will have to wait until I've had time to think that through.


That's excellent analysis!

Nothing like a squirrelly special power :D

I'll answer your question with another, suggesting that the ruling might be that the private token is returned to the Major's charter when the condition you outline above arises:

Does it provide an unbalancing exploit to be able to re-place the private token?

 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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Ganraeln wrote:
I'll answer your question with another, suggesting that the ruling might be that the private token is returned to the Major's charter when the condition you outline above arises:

Does it provide an unbalancing exploit to be able to re-place the private token?

Not really; it's a bit of an extra advantage, I suppose, but nothing unbalancing if everyone understands that this is a possibility.

But it would be surprising to me. I would naively assume that if the token has to be removed, because the SH token is treated as a RR'ss own token, for the rule "The major must decline any tokens in the same hex where the major already has a token".

So: if the minor has used the SH, and the major has a real token, the SH token is removed; and if the minor has a real token and the major has used the SH, the minor's token is removed.
 
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Mark Frazier
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pijll wrote:
Ganraeln wrote:
I'll answer your question with another, suggesting that the ruling might be that the private token is returned to the Major's charter when the condition you outline above arises:

Does it provide an unbalancing exploit to be able to re-place the private token?

Not really; it's a bit of an extra advantage, I suppose, but nothing unbalancing if everyone understands that this is a possibility.

But it would be surprising to me. I would naively assume that if the token has to be removed, because the SH token is treated as a RR'ss own token, for the rule "The major must decline any tokens in the same hex where the major already has a token".

So: if the minor has used the SH, and the major has a real token, the SH token is removed; and if the minor has a real token and the major has used the SH, the minor's token is removed.



Interpreting "The major must decline any tokens in the same hex where the major already has a token" to mean private tokens could get extremely messy (think: Minor D, Brandt & Brandau). That statement should read "The major must decline any station tokens in the same hex where the major already has a station token".

The question becomes - which way introduces the least amount of rules weight and special cases? Allowing co-existence or not allowing it? It seems to me that not permitting it is the least complicated.

Can anyone think of other conditions that would have to be spelled out if not permitting the private token to co-exist?
 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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Ganraeln wrote:
Interpreting "The major must decline any tokens in the same hex where the major already has a token" to mean private tokens could get extremely messy (think: Minor D, Brandt & Brandau).

Intuitively, it makes sense that you cannot place the SH token and your own token in one city because the SH token is "kind of" a station token. And then my interpretation above follows logically from that point of view.

If you don't agree with my intuition, then you have to come up with your own justification for not allowing the SH and another token to co-exist.

The B&B token is not "kind of" a station token.

Quote:
Can anyone think of other conditions that would have to be spelled out if not permitting the private token to co-exist?

I'll think a bit more about this. I've only played a medium scenario yet, so I don't know all the privates yet.
 
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Jake Heichert
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One question because this seemed like a corner case: shouldn't Lille take the Central Circle token? The rules seem to imply that only the port symbol counts as a "port city" (this term isn't actually defined in the rules) and since Lille has a ferry but no port, it seems like it should get the CC, not the SH.

Now that I look closer, the rules actually support this: 11.2.2 talks about the CC on Lille, not the SH.
 
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Mark Frazier
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I completely missed that! Yes, Central Circle is valid in Lille. Star Harbor is not.

I do agree with the intuition that these private tokens are treated very much like station tokens. I was merely pointing out that the phrasing needs to be pretty specific so I don't end up creating a bigger problem with the other private tokens such as Brandt & Brandau.

After all, we are zeroing in on a pretty rare edge case. It has to be dealt with, but adding several paragraphs of rules to handle it is bad design.

 
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