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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Thoughts on the Hero and Monster Packs rss

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Dan Harshman
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Descent first edition had 25 monsters and 48 Heroes.

They are so far releasing them in ratios of 3 monsters and 4 Heroes per set. This will not equal out.

Do you think they will redo all of the heroes, or just some of them?

I also suppose the Crypt Dragon and Demon Releases might not have 3 monsters per box.
 
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Chris Mathis
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I think the will hand pick ones that they feel belong in second edition.
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I'm gonna buy them all, and when the wife gives me that Disapproving Look for Frivolous Purchases, I'm going to feel slightly guilty.

Then buy the next pack.
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Rafal Areinu
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Since they will have mostly heroes left over they might just as well put last 12 or so in 1 box. Or create new monsters
 
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Dan Harshman
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nerdook wrote:
I'm gonna buy them all, and when the wife gives me that Disapproving Look for Frivolous Purchases, I'm going to feel slightly guilty.

Then buy the next pack.


lol same here. I was going to skip these since I had all the first edition stuff and the conversion kit, but then I found out they had new quests and the stat cards are different I'll be picking them up.
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Thorsten Schröder
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I don't know if I can resist them... I just like the look of the new minis.
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Dean L
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I don't think they'll even re-do all the monsters. Some would see so little use it'd be fairly pointless.

Also most of the cost comes from set-up costs rather than plastic costs, so doing 12 different heroes, each with a separate mold, would mean charging nearly twice as much as for a pack with 4 heroes and 3 monster groups.

I honestly reckon we're looking at maybe five of these boxes total.
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Rafal Areinu
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Dean, since they are rebalancing the stats on those monsters they could make each of them useful. This means they could do every monster.
 
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Areinu wrote:
Dean, since they are rebalancing the stats on those monsters they could make each of them useful. This means they could do every monster.


Areinu, have you seen the actual cards? You're kidding yourself if you think they're "rebalancing" in any meaningful way, or if you think that they're making some of the less useful monsters useful. (Look at sorcerers, for instance - hardly an overpowered monster, but they nerfed them anyway for the sake of having to include one fewer mini per pack. Hardly makes me hopeful for "rebalancing".)
 
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It depends on if these packs are successful or not. If they are, I could see them start to release new heroes once they run out of them (since they'll want to keep producing the monsters until all of them are out). If they're not successful, I can't imagine we'll see every monster (or most likely every hero) in a set. They already have three of the sets planned out, so who knows?
 
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Chris J Davis
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As the above poster says, if they're successful, they'll simply keep releasing them with new (non-1E) monsters. There's no reason they have to stick to 1E.
 
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Herwig Riedl
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Quote:
run out of them (since they'll want to keep producing the monsters until all of them are out). If they're not successful, I can't imagine we'll see every monster (or most likely every hero) in a set. They already have three of the sets planned out, so who knows?



looking at the product nummbers there will be at least 6- 8 sets....

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1968753/descent-journeys-....
 
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Rafal Areinu
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amoshias wrote:
Areinu wrote:
Dean, since they are rebalancing the stats on those monsters they could make each of them useful. This means they could do every monster.


Areinu, have you seen the actual cards? You're kidding yourself if you think they're "rebalancing" in any meaningful way, or if you think that they're making some of the less useful monsters useful. (Look at sorcerers, for instance - hardly an overpowered monster, but they nerfed them anyway for the sake of having to include one fewer mini per pack. Hardly makes me hopeful for "rebalancing".)


The fact here is they ARE rebalancing. That means they CAN make useless monsters more useful. I don't think new Sorcerers are nerfed. Undying could ignore group limits, but since heroes knew that they usually didn't mass murder master sorcerers, before killing some minions. When they decided to kill master overlord lost master sorcerer for a while(or in case of no reinforcements - forever). Often respawn point is at least 1 turn away from where the action is taking place, and before master sorcerer was back his minions were usually dead.

Now master sorcerer is invincible as long as any minion is alive. This can be devastating. Master can just run towards heroes, increasing potency of his sorcery. Even if they kill him, the death will go to some minion, and that means that heroes lost additional moves to get rid of a minion. Master has more health after all. And Master can put some nice damage from up close, with at least 3 wounds pretty much guaranteed. Meanwhile minions can be doing something completely unrelated, as for example completing goal objectives. After all it's the OL who chooses which minion goes down. He can choose the most useless one, or one about to die anyway. On one caught in the same blast. Whatever fits him the most.
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The One
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bleached_lizard wrote:
As the above poster says, if they're successful, they'll simply keep releasing them with new (non-1E) monsters. There's no reason they have to stick to 1E.


FFG have announced Bandits and Wraiths in the upcoming Manor of ravens expansion, which I understand are new monster groups (ie. not ported over from 1st Ed)?
 
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Chris J Davis
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True_Dave wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
As the above poster says, if they're successful, they'll simply keep releasing them with new (non-1E) monsters. There's no reason they have to stick to 1E.


FFG have announced Bandits and Wraiths in the upcoming Manor of ravens expansion, which I understand are new monster groups (ie. not ported over from 1st Ed)?


Correct, but so far all monsters in the "normal" expansions have been new, and all monsters in the H&M packs have been from 1st Ed. So what I'm saying is that they don't have to keep to that model - they can start releasing new monsters in the H&M packs if they want.
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Dean L
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Areinu wrote:
Dean, since they are rebalancing the stats on those monsters they could make each of them useful. This means they could do every monster.


It's not about some being better than others, so much as the design space is only so big, only so much they can add, while making sure that they don't utterly break existing quests. Having two slightly different versions of "big slow monster that hits hard" isn't that interesting.

Further, heroes are one thing, but adding new monster choices adds new overhead to monster choice in every quest. Every time the Overlord has to pick monsters, it becomes a more and more complicated choice. And more and more potentially broken. It certainly swings things the Overlord's way in terms of giving him the exact right open group for each thing.

To be honest, I have my concerns with Nerekhall that any Shadow Rune or Labyrinth quests that need the heroes to kill Lieutenants and let you take Ironbound are already screwed up.
 
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Rafal Areinu
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Some would claim this whole game is broken, so a bit more broken here or there certainly won't hurt this game anymore. Others could argue that lack of balance is part of magic of this game. Personally, I believe there can be a lot of interesting things added without breaking the game.

And certainly seeing Golems in EVERY encounter, if it's the only big slow monster that hits hard, is more boring that seeing 3 different big slow monsters cycled.

There's nothing wrong with OL getting a lot of options. Slow OL will be slow no matter how many options you give to him. Most of slow players usually spend most of their choosing time after quickly narrowing it to 2-3 monsters anyway. People probably buy expansions gradually with their experience at the game, so they already know what many monsters can do when they are choosing.

And hey, OL being able to choose exact right thing for the task is good. After all OL is still a player that wants to make decisions and influence the game, not be the guy who moves monsters around because someone has to.

And I don't mind if some quest or another gets broken by including some monster. With as many quests as we already have? Not a problem.
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JH
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Deano2099 wrote:
To be honest, I have my concerns with Nerekhall that any Shadow Rune or Labyrinth quests that need the heroes to kill Lieutenants and let you take Ironbound are already screwed up.

The thing about the ironbound is that they have to take damage in order to Protect, and they're slooooooooooowww. Just 2 speed. If you want to keep your lieutenant protected, then they're chained to the ironbound and easy for the heroes to get to. They (like golems) also can't be used in every quest where they might be useful — monster traits and all.
 
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Dean L
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Areinu wrote:

And hey, OL being able to choose exact right thing for the task is good. After all OL is still a player that wants to make decisions and influence the game, not be the guy who moves monsters around because someone has to.

It tilts the game towards the OL though - effectively he can take the optimal monsters into his encounters, while the heroes are stuck with the hero they picked at the start of the campaign. That might well be fine, and within acceptable limits, but the more monsters you add, the more you tilt things towards the Overlord.

Quote:
And I don't mind if some quest or another gets broken by including some monster. With as many quests as we already have? Not a problem.


Possibly, but certain design spaces are out - I'm sure Ironbound are as slow as they are because of the potential to imbalance quests where you're defending a Lieutenant. We'll likely never see a monster faster than the current ones because of the potential to mess with race/chase quests.

Sure, the game may still be fine with more and more and more monsters, but to me it seems at odds with FFG's current design philosophy. They're adding things which are used on a per campaign basis quickly (heroes, plot decks) but growing out existing elements is a lot rarer. We've had one addition to the search deck in all the expansions, and no new cards for existing classes. I just don't see adding in all of the 1E monsters to be likely. Happy to be proved wrong though!
 
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M M
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Deano2099 wrote:
Areinu wrote:
Dean, since they are rebalancing the stats on those monsters they could make each of them useful. This means they could do every monster.

It's not about some being better than others, so much as the design space is only so big, only so much they can add, while making sure that they don't utterly break existing quests. Having two slightly different versions of "big slow monster that hits hard" isn't that interesting.

Further, heroes are one thing, but adding new monster choices adds new overhead to monster choice in every quest. Every time the Overlord has to pick monsters, it becomes a more and more complicated choice. And more and more potentially broken. It certainly swings things the Overlord's way in terms of giving him the exact right open group for each thing.

To be honest, I have my concerns with Nerekhall that any Shadow Rune or Labyrinth quests that need the heroes to kill Lieutenants and let you take Ironbound are already screwed up.

I'd rather play in a game where the OL was thinking about what strategy they want to do and thinking about what monster is best suited for that than to just see goblin archers and shadow dragons every other quest.

I'd also say that the OL doesn't have a duty, but should, keep things fresh with variety. Choosing kobolds or choosing ironbound or choosing hybrids every time is uninspired play.
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