Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
51 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Lamarckian Inheritance Not to be Completely Discounted? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmb
Here's why I like RSP - not being an evolutionary biologist myself - I am just wondering if this guy is pretty much out in left field on his own, or if his conclusions are gaining support.

http://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2014/04/23/lamarckian-...

Shapiro has a thin, dense book called Evolution: A View from the 21st Century, in which he makes the case for a radical departure from the notion that evolution takes place by natural selection on random mutations. He cites evidence that the “mutations” that appear under stress are far from random, that in fact the cell is re-arranging its own DNA, and doing so in a way that is much more likely than “random” to produce an adaptive response to the particular stress at hand. “Natural genetic engineering”, he calls it. He has spent much of his career documenting this effect in bacteria, but he claims that animals and plants have far more sophisticated abilities to re-arrange their own DNA – it’s just that these are more difficult to see in the laboratory.

If Shapiro is right, then perhaps we can begin to understand the mystery of how evolution is so miraculously efficient as it seems to be. One way or another, we will have to leave traditional limits of neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory behind, and I believe that Shapiro’s work together with the literature of evolvability, provide the clearest roadmap we have for a new understanding of evolution.


I haven't read the book yet, but for myself, I have to say I find the thought of "natural genetic engineering" promises to be more intellectually satisfying than simple "random mutations".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Was it not Lamarckianism that (in effect) destroyed soviet farming?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mechanism mechanism mechanism
or it's all just wishful thinking
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
galad2003 wrote:
I don't think Lamarck should be taxed 100% on his inheritance. He didn't earn it and its not fair to poor people.

Um, poor people pass on whatever they have to children too. How does it help the poor for gov'ts to rob the rich?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Beaton
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
I have a cunning plan
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gamesterinns wrote:
Here's why I like RSP - not being an evolutionary biologist myself - I am just wondering if this guy is pretty much out in left field on his own, or if his conclusions are gaining support.

http://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2014/04/23/lamarckian-...

Shapiro has a thin, dense book called Evolution: A View from the 21st Century, in which he makes the case for a radical departure from the notion that evolution takes place by natural selection on random mutations. He cites evidence that the “mutations” that appear under stress are far from random, that in fact the cell is re-arranging its own DNA, and doing so in a way that is much more likely than “random” to produce an adaptive response to the particular stress at hand. “Natural genetic engineering”, he calls it. He has spent much of his career documenting this effect in bacteria, but he claims that animals and plants have far more sophisticated abilities to re-arrange their own DNA – it’s just that these are more difficult to see in the laboratory.

If Shapiro is right, then perhaps we can begin to understand the mystery of how evolution is so miraculously efficient as it seems to be. One way or another, we will have to leave traditional limits of neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory behind, and I believe that Shapiro’s work together with the literature of evolvability, provide the clearest roadmap we have for a new understanding of evolution.


I haven't read the book yet, but for myself, I have to say I find the thought of "natural genetic engineering" promises to be more intellectually satisfying than simple "random mutations".


From what I've read, it seems that stresses on the parent will affect which genes will be expressed in the offspring and which will lie dormant. The actual genetic code remains unmodified, and therefore this is not a mechanism for evolution. Take the stress away and future offspring will revert to type, further mutations notwithstanding.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Keefe
United States
Kettering
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You're talking epigenetics. Methylation groups and the like; it's old news in the biological realm, but it's just now hitting the mainstream understanding.
6 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
I don't think Lamarck should be taxed 100% on his inheritance. He didn't earn it and its not fair to poor people.

Um, poor people pass on whatever they have to children too. How does it help the poor for gov'ts to rob the rich?


You can't rob someone who is dead. Though I fully support big inheritance taxes, I realize there are far too many ways to subvert them to make it a practical policy. I'm not so sure that it helps the poor more than it helps create a true meritocracy, instead of an oligarchy of powerful individuals who wield power and influence, not because of their abilities, but because of the their birthright.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:
whac3 wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
I don't think Lamarck should be taxed 100% on his inheritance. He didn't earn it and its not fair to poor people.

Um, poor people pass on whatever they have to children too. How does it help the poor for gov'ts to rob the rich?


You can't rob someone who is dead. Though I fully support big inheritance taxes, I realize there are far too many ways to subvert them to make it a practical policy. I'm not so sure that it helps the poor more than it helps create a true meritocracy, instead of an oligarchy of powerful individuals who wield power and influence, not because of their abilities, but because of the their birthright.

Absolutely disagree. By that logic the Nazis weren't thieves for taken their victims' goods so long as they killed them first.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:

Absolutely disagree. By that logic the Nazis weren't thieves for taken their victims' goods so long as they killed them first.


Whether they were thieves or not is secondary to being murderers, which I don't think any inheritance Tax proponent is proposing. Returning ownerless capital to society is a totally different concept.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Absolutely disagree. By that logic the Nazis weren't thieves for taken their victims' goods so long as they killed them first.


Whether they were thieves or not is secondary to being murderers, which I don't think any inheritance Tax proponent is proposing. Returning ownerless capital to society is a totally different concept.

Yet they are still thieves as well as murderers. If you were right, they wouldn't be.

Dying does not negate all rights of the individual. One has a moral obligation to dispose of the person's remains nd property a the person would have wanted as much as that can be determined and as much a practically possible. Why? Because a dead person is still a person.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Why? Because a dead person is still a person.


And based on this statement, your view is consistent and logical. I think we could probably have a whole thread on when is a person a person that would invite Deceased Rights debate as well as the usual suspects of Abortion/Fetal Rights arguments. I tend towards the remains not being a person and don't see much value of continuing an arbitrary legal construct after someone's sentience is legally expired.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
If you were right, they wouldn't be.


I still don't agree, killing someone to get their stuff is thievery. There is an active choice to kill them (causing premeditated premature death) so you can get their stuff. Society, as a whole, making a legal determination of what happens to your wealth when you are gone is different.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:
whac3 wrote:
If you were right, they wouldn't be.


I still don't agree, killing someone to get their stuff is thievery. There is an active choice to kill them (causing premeditated premature death) so you can get their stuff. Society, as a whole, making a legal determination of what happens to your wealth when you are gone is different.

They didn't kill them to get their stuff. They murdered them whether the victims has anything or not. Then they also took whatever the victim had.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I think the ancient Egyptians had the right idea; burying everyone with all their monies. One filthy rich pharao's death would make everybody else's monies more valuable.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lamarckian inheritance, irreducible complexity, God of the gaps, quotes from Darwin that really don't contradict anything he said before. It's a creationist/ID proponent's tour de force.

Sadly, it's also largely junk. Epigenetics is an argument for natural selection, not against. It expressly increases the importance of environmental factors to make a particular adaptation more or less desirable. For example - if we weren't able to treat diabetes and an obese woman passed along insulin resistance to her child, would the genes that made this likely increase or decrease the chances of survival?

There's no question we don't understand all of the mechanisms at work in genetics or evolution. Jumping off the "Well, then, it must be irreducibly complex and God did that!" cliff is bad science.
11 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Only in RSP can a thread on genetic inheritance turn in to a debate about taxation, theft, and Nazis.

Maybe we should tax babies for the good genes that they inherit from Mom & Dad? Level the playing field before they even get going. Quaismodo gets a massive rebate, Kate Upton owes $75 million (payable over time, of course).
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
perfalbion wrote:
Quaismodo gets a massive rebate, Kate Upton owes $75 million (payable over time, of course).

Unfair! Quasimodo clearly has the bigger humps.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
perfalbion wrote:
Only in RSP can a thread on genetic inheritance turn in to a debate about taxation, theft, and Nazis.

Maybe we should tax babies for the good genes that they inherit from Mom & Dad? Level the playing field before they even get going. Quaismodo gets a massive rebate, Kate Upton owes $75 million (payable over time, of course).

Does it count as a Godwin if the mention of Nazis logically addresses the point and is a meaningful counter-example to an argument presented?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
perfalbion wrote:

Maybe we should tax babies for the good genes that they inherit from Mom & Dad? Level the playing field before they even get going. Quaismodo gets a massive rebate, Kate Upton owes $75 million (payable over time, of course).


This is already built into the system, bad gene'd babies don't succeed as much and pay less taxes as a result.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Beaton
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
I have a cunning plan
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
Only in RSP can a thread on genetic inheritance turn in to a debate about taxation, theft, and Nazis.

Maybe we should tax babies for the good genes that they inherit from Mom & Dad? Level the playing field before they even get going. Quaismodo gets a massive rebate, Kate Upton owes $75 million (payable over time, of course).

Does it count as a Godwin if the mention of Nazis logically addresses the point and is a meaningful counter-example to an argument presented?


You betcha!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neon Joe, Werewolf He-yump
United States
Lincoln
NE
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Simon Mueller wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
Quaismodo gets a massive rebate, Kate Upton owes $75 million (payable over time, of course).

Unfair! Quasimodo clearly has the bigger humps.


Thanks a lot, now I have that god awful Black Eyed Peas song stuck in my head yuk
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Does it count as a Godwin if the mention of Nazis logically addresses the point and is a meaningful counter-example to an argument presented?


Yes. And you're not going to be happy when you receive the "Godwin's Law Invoked" tax bill that's on it's way to you.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Simon Mueller wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
Quaismodo gets a massive rebate, Kate Upton owes $75 million (payable over time, of course).

Unfair! Quasimodo clearly has the bigger humps.


You are not a well man.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
perfalbion wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Does it count as a Godwin if the mention of Nazis logically addresses the point and is a meaningful counter-example to an argument presented?


Yes. And you're not going to be happy when you receive the "Godwin's Law Invoked" tax bill that's on it's way to you.

I'm in a different country. Either it's illegal to pay taxes to a foreign entity or I'll pretend it is.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
I'm in a different country. Either it's illegal to pay taxes to a foreign entity or I'll pretend it is.


It's an Internet tax. There are no borders!

ETA: And you can pay in Bitcoin.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.