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Subject: Net Shield vs. Tori Hanzo Ruling (Spoiler: Netshield Wins For Now) rss

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Captain Frisk
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Quote:

Rule Question:
If the runner has net shield installed and is about to take damage from data mine, can the corporation use Tori Hanzo to shift the damage to Brain before net shield can prevent the damage?

If the answer is that net shield can prevent the damage - is this it because of runner priority?

If the damage source was house of knives instead - would it matter?

There's a tournament this weekend and it's already come up in casual play. (Hokusai Grid + Tori Hanzo)



Quote:

Thanks for the question. This is a topic that will be addressed in the next FAQ. For the time being, treat them as simultaneous effects (thus, during a run, the Runner has priority and can prevent the damage first). Hope that helps,

--
Lukas Litzsinger




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Captain Frisk, I expected better from you. Next time please let us argue for at least 3 pages before posting the ruling.

This is actually very helpful, thanks.
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Captain Frisk
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DrTall wrote:
Captain Frisk, I expected better from you. Next time please let us argue for at least 3 pages before posting the ruling.

This is actually very helpful, thanks.


I honestly had no idea what the answer was going to be... sometimes the ruling is obvious but I ask anyway because you want an official ruling to point to (e.g. JinE does not do damage when the runner trashes Chairman Hiro or takes a Shi Kyu), but for this one I could see it going either way, and unlike the infinite Toshi swap - this one might actually happen.
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Ben Finkel
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I wonder how this interacts with that ruling for The Cleaners. If I Plascrete damage from Dedicated Response Team, is it still +1'd? Probably, but that seems inconsistent.
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Azeltir wrote:
I wonder how this interacts with that ruling for The Cleaners. If I Plascrete damage from Dedicated Response Team, is it still +1'd? Probably, but that seems inconsistent.


The Cleaners says to host the meat damage, but Tori says to install it.....wait wrong thread.
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Captain Frisk
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Azeltir wrote:
I wonder how this interacts with that ruling for The Cleaners. If I Plascrete damage from Dedicated Response Team, is it still +1'd? Probably, but that seems inconsistent.


Good catch!
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Gregory Pettigrew
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This is exactly the ruling I expected, especially the "stay tuned in case it changes" part.
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Captain Frisk
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etherial wrote:
This is exactly the ruling I expected, especially the "stay tuned in case it changes" part.


Based on his response, I suspect we'll end up with an official ruling that gives prevention effects priority over replacement in all cases (regardless of who's turn it is)

Since Tori only works during a run, and thus the runner's turn - it works fine, but his official ruling would indicate that if somehow Tori was going to fire on the corp's turn, that she would work first due to simultaneous effects.
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Captain Frisk
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
I wonder how this interacts with that ruling for The Cleaners. If I Plascrete damage from Dedicated Response Team, is it still +1'd? Probably, but that seems inconsistent.


Good catch!


Actually - the FAQ covers this one

Quote:
36 The Cleaners
• The Cleaners adds an additional point of damage to the
source of the damage before any damage is prevented.
• The Cleaners can add unprevent


Agreed that this appears to be inconsistent.

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Chris Wood
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Maybe because Tori is a triggered ability and the Cleaners is a constant?
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Rob Jennings
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Taloncarde wrote:
Maybe because Tori is a triggered ability and the Cleaners is a constant?


Bingo. Constant abilities always have priority over everything.
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Cedric Bertolini
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What about the second time the Corp deals net damage during a run on a server with a rezzed Tori Hanzo, when the first one was prevented by Net Shield (or Deus X, or whatever)? Can the Corp trigger Tori Hanzo?
 
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Brodie
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Alsciende wrote:
What about the second time the Corp deals net damage during a run on a server with a rezzed Tori Hanzo, when the first one was prevented by Net Shield (or Deus X, or whatever)? Can the Corp trigger Tori Hanzo?


You've answered your own question. It's the second time the Corp would deal net damage during a run on this server. It doesn't matter whether the first one was successful, prevented, converted to brain damage, whatever. It's still no longer the first time you would do net damage.
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Nicolas Andre
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So as to be clear :

Corpo's turn, Net shield and Tori Hanzo are in play, runner made successfull run last turn :

Click 1 : Corpo play Neural EMP

Lukas rulling tells us how to play that, both Tori and Net Shield are trigger, Tori is resolved first as they are simultaneous effect

Click 2 : Corpo play Neural EMP, Tori as Net shield can't be triggered as they have allready been triggered previously.

Right ? This logical resolution makes me feel sad.
 
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Cedric Bertolini
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Shindulus wrote:
So as to be clear :

Corpo's turn, Net shield and Tori Hanzo are in play, runner made successfull run last turn :

Click 1 : Corpo play Neural EMP

Lukas rulling tells us how to play that, both Tori and Net Shield are trigger, Tori is resolved first as they are simultaneous effect

Click 2 : Corpo play Neural EMP, Tori as Net shield can't be triggered as they have allready been triggered previously.

Right ? This logical resolution makes me feel sad.

Tori triggers only during runs on her server.
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Nicolas Andre
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Just suppose there is no such restriction.

And if you don't want to do this supposition, My question is wider, what about damage prevention / transformation / ... in general. Cause there is no simetry in the way they are treated during runner / corpo turn.

My answer to your question is that the net damage have not been to the point it would have been dealt so you still can trigger Tori. Hopefully it is, as already said a "Stay tuned in case it changes... and have more clarifications" answer from Lukas.


 
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Steven Tu
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Just checking quickly here, does this Tori Hanzo ruling still stand currently?

That is, does Tori Hanzo get neutered by Net Shield? D:
 
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Chris Wood
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Lukas said "Wait for the next FAQ" and I haven't seen a faq, so I assume yes.
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Captain Frisk
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Quick update - now Net Shield wins all the time:

Quote:

Prevent/Avoid Effects
Prevent/Avoid effects take priority over conditional abilities
that would trigger from whatever is being prevented or avoided,
except when a conditional ability uses the word “additional.” An
“additional” conditional ability occurs simultaneously with the
trigger condition and can be prevented/avoided along with the
trigger condition.


Quote:
22 Tori Hanzō
• The first net damage can be prevented/avoided before Tori
Hanzō’s replacement ability resolves.
• If the first point of net damage is prevented by another effect
or replaced with Tori Hanzō’s own effect, Tori Hanzō cannot
trigger for the remainder of the run.
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Benny And The
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If the runner has net shield and runs into a neural katana and a rezzed tori hanzo, can hanzo's replacement still be used? This ruling seems to only consider net damage occurring one at a time.

I'm thinking the answer is yes you could still use hanzo since net shield only prevented one of the three net damage. Tori hanzo says you can use her ability the first time you do any amount of net damage.
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Allan Clements
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Turns out Esseb did touch the flag. Don't tell him I said so though.
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Jets wrote:
If the runner has net shield and runs into a neural katana and a rezzed tori hanzo, can hanzo's replacement still be used? This ruling seems to only consider net damage occurring one at a time.

I'm thinking the answer is yes you could still use hanzo since net shield only prevented one of the three net damage. Tori hanzo says you can use her ability the first time you do any amount of net damage.


yes, unless they prevent all 3 net damage from the Katana, you can convert one to brain damage.
 
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Matt T
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hopefully its not bad form to bump such an old thread, but i have some Tori questions.

Kamakaze wrote:
Jets wrote:
If the runner has net shield and runs into a neural katana and a rezzed tori hanzo, can hanzo's replacement still be used? This ruling seems to only consider net damage occurring one at a time.

I'm thinking the answer is yes you could still use hanzo since net shield only prevented one of the three net damage. Tori hanzo says you can use her ability the first time you do any amount of net damage.


yes, unless they prevent all 3 net damage from the Katana, you can convert one to brain damage.


is this correct? the way im reading it:
Quote:
• If the first point of net damage is prevented by another effect
or replaced with Tori Hanzō’s own effect, Tori Hanzō cannot
trigger for the remainder of the run.


since the first point of net damage is deflected by net shield, Tori's ability cannot trigger, right? no matter how much net damage was done in the first blow, Tori would not be able to use her power because the first point of net damage was blocked. correct?

 
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Andrew Keddie
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Mattheus wrote:
hopefully its not bad form to bump such an old thread, but i have some Tori questions.

Kamakaze wrote:
Jets wrote:
If the runner has net shield and runs into a neural katana and a rezzed tori hanzo, can hanzo's replacement still be used? This ruling seems to only consider net damage occurring one at a time.

I'm thinking the answer is yes you could still use hanzo since net shield only prevented one of the three net damage. Tori hanzo says you can use her ability the first time you do any amount of net damage.


yes, unless they prevent all 3 net damage from the Katana, you can convert one to brain damage.


is this correct? the way im reading it:
Quote:
• If the first point of net damage is prevented by another effect
or replaced with Tori Hanzō’s own effect, Tori Hanzō cannot
trigger for the remainder of the run.


since the first point of net damage is deflected by net shield, Tori's ability cannot trigger, right? no matter how much net damage was done in the first blow, Tori would not be able to use her power because the first point of net damage was blocked. correct?



Correct, it's actually further upthread.

Quote:
22 Tori Hanzō
• The first net damage can be prevented/avoided before Tori
Hanzō’s replacement ability resolves.
• If the first point of net damage is prevented by another effect
or replaced with Tori Hanzō’s own effect, Tori Hanzō cannot
trigger for the remainder of the run.
 
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Matt T
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meaning the conclusion i came to, not the post i quoted, yes?

it makes sense reading the FAQ ruling, just seemed odd that the thread was left with two people who had come to the wrong conclusion and no one corrected the mistake.

thanks.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Yeah, bit surprising. I imagine most people (myself included) saw that the question had been answered and decided to stop reading at that point. Hadn't been back into the thread to see those last posts.
 
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