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Subject: [DECK] Iain Stirling - Central Intelligence rss

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Andrew Keddie
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Ok, I've never really played Criminal (Siphon-spam not appealing to my playstyle) so when Stirling was spoiled, I was immediately curious as to what a slow-play Criminal might look like. Here's my take:

Central intelligence (45 cards)

Iain Stirling: Retired Spook

Event (11)
2 Calling in Favors
3 Hostage
3 Special Order
3 Sure Gamble

Hardware (10)
3 Dyson Mem Chip
2 E3 Feedback Implants
3 Logos
2 Silencer

Resource (12)
2 Compromised Employee
2 Crash Space
1 Data Dealer
1 Decoy
3 Fall Guy
1 Kati Jones
1 The Source ••
1 Underworld Contact

Icebreaker (6)
1 Alias
2 Breach
1 Crypsis
1 Femme Fatale
1 Passport

Program (6)
2 Chakana ••••
1 Datasucker
2 Grappling Hook
1 Keyhole •••

Built with http://netrunner.meteor.com/

The idea is to... sit back. Build your rig. Let the Corp score one Agenda to switch on Ian. Then you slap down The Source (and any other missing pieces of the following): Chakana, Keyhole, and Central breakers.

Go hogwild with Keyhole (which also charges Chakana). If the Corp keeps scoring, use your Fall Guys to keep The Source on the table. If the Corp is in danger of scoring too many from a remote, get Crypsis and go fetch.

So, to explain some of the other choices:

Alias and Femme aren't cheap to use as actual breakers, so a couple of Silencers seemed like a good idea (with the added bonus that you can use them for Femme's bypass).

Tri-maf - I could go either way on this. If it proves to be a liability it's gonna get cut. Obviously you don't want to get tagged and have it trashed, so there are ways to protect from this (Crash Space, Decoy, Fall Guy).

NO PLASTCRETE - taking a risk here. Hoping that with Decoy, Crash Space and Logos, I can either straight-up dodge the tags, or failing that have enough cards in grip/damage prevention to survive a triple-scorch.

I still have this weird desire to see UWC working. I'm hoping Iain is the guy, but if not, I can lose it for something better.

Compromised Employee - IMO a very underrated card. The credit-on-rez really messes with the Corp's math.

Data Dealer - worst-case, he's an extra Connection for Calling in Favors. Best case, you sell him an Agenda to win the game.

Grappling Hook and E3 are a lovely combo, and wonderful for dealing with certain types of big ICE (which Crypsis struggles with). A Heimdall on a remote could wreck you without this.

I'd love to find room for the S&W (in case of Caprice on a remote or R&D).

So, how does it look on paper? I won't be testing it (probably) until after Regionals.

EDIT: I just realised, this deck is hugely lacking in any draw power, and for some reason I neglected Mr. Li. I'll try and remedy that (should only need 1 with the Hostages) so I just need to cut one card somewhere.
 
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Michael Redston
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Youl should still play Siphon.
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Andrew Keddie
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kroen wrote:
Youl should still play Siphon.


Firstly: goes against the deck design. I don't want to have to deal with tags, and I don't want to play typical 'aggro crim'.

Secondly: if you were to revise this for Siphons, what would you cut? What else would you add?
 
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Shane Ruman
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I don't think your Underworld Contacts is going to be usually worth it in the deck. Either will sit in hand waiting for Dyson to come up (and have opportunity to get played) or will come to late ( < 5 turns left ) to be worth it. Not sure you want to use a hostage for it. I guess it works with calling in favours but timing again there, I'd think about switching out both card-types. If you want to be behind, why the source since it'll slow down the corp's agenda scoring.

More generally you have focused breakers on central but no multi-access or other reason to attack centrals.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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wiley15 wrote:
I don't think your Underworld Contacts is going to be usually worth it in the deck. Either will sit in hand waiting for Dyson to come up (and have opportunity to get played) or will come to late ( < 5 turns left ) to be worth it. Not sure you want to use a hostage for it. I guess it works with calling in favours but timing again there, I'd think about switching out both card-types. If you want to be behind, why the source since it'll slow down the corp's agenda scoring.

More generally you have focused breakers on central but no multi-access or other reason to attack centrals.


Keyhole is the central pressure. The Source because you want to be behind, but not by too much (if you read the full post you'd see that the idea is to allow them to score one before you go big with The Source and Chakana to slow down the next ones). You want to Keyhole as many Agendas as possible to maximise Iain's 2cr benefit before you score them yourself.

I agree UWC may not be worth it without another form of Link boost. Sadly I can't easily cut the Dysons as I need more MU for the full rig than Logos can provide. Q-coherence is no good because I'd lose all of them the first time I ate a Grappling Hook. I don't have the influence for Akamatsu or Cybersolutions.

I might actually include a Legwork or two for those late-game HQ attacks (when you suspect they're holding a bunch in HQ), so that's a valid concern. Nor sure which cards to cut for it though.
 
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Thomas R
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I like the deck idea in general, but I think that a Keyhole focused endgame is a mistake given your rig. Keyhole is at its strongest when you're opening up a window of four or more clicks in a row where you get to hammer R&D. This deck isn't going to be able to do that, which suggests that you'd be better off with a more "traditional" R&D lock approach. I mean, even if you're getting free credits every turn, it's going to cost you 4 credits to break a Wall of Static, so you're not going to get the efficient runs on R&D that make Keyhole shine.

I agree that you really want a one-of Mr. Li, too. You need some sort of draw, and that's a really good option.
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Andrew Keddie
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anathomical wrote:
I like the deck idea in general, but I think that a Keyhole focused endgame is a mistake given your rig. Keyhole is at its strongest when you're opening up a window of four or more clicks in a row where you get to hammer R&D. This deck isn't going to be able to do that, which suggests that you'd be better off with a more "traditional" R&D lock approach. I mean, even if you're getting free credits every turn, it's going to cost you 4 credits to break a Wall of Static, so you're not going to get the efficient runs on R&D that make Keyhole shine.

I agree that you really want a one-of Mr. Li, too. You need some sort of draw, and that's a really good option.


Hm, I do see your point. I think the answer is going to be more economy rather than changing to R&D lock though. The idea with Keyhole is to keep Iain relevant as long as possible (otherwise I could just swap this list to another ID with more influence).

Also, Datasucker brings Wall of Static into 'break for 2' range, which is much healthier.

Thanks for the suggestions though; good to have the feedback if you have any idea on how else to utilise Iain's ability for maximum number of turns I'll be glad to hear (only other option I can think of right now is DLR - which could work with Siphon or Masanori as an enabler).
 
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Thomas R
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions though; good to have the feedback if you have any idea on how else to utilise Iain's ability for maximum number of turns I'll be glad to hear (only other option I can think of right now is DLR - which could work with Siphon or Masanori as an enabler).


This is actually a pretty interesting question. I don't have a good answer for it, but I might suggest that it's worth looking at from a different angle. I'd suggest looking at two things:

1) How does Sterling's ability distort your opponent's play? I've only played a handful of games with or against the ID so far, but it seems to me that just having him out makes the corporation hesitant to score the first agenda. You'd rather hold off until you can score a number in a row, or until the runner is ahead, so that you don't activate the ability. So there's a sense in which Sterling's power isn't about economic advantage, but about pushing the corp to slow down.

2) How much is enough? Rather than worrying about "maximizing" the ability, think about rough break-even points. How many credits does Kate's ability provide in an average game? What about Gabe? How many more credits than that does Sterling's ability need to provide to make up for the loss of influence? It may be that you only need to make 12 or 14 credits before it's totally worth it, at which point you don't need to be milling to avoid scoring to keep your ability active.

I suppose there's also the fact that Data Dealer can let you turn the ability back on if that feels like the right thing to do...
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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anathomical wrote:
it seems to me that just having him out makes the corporation hesitant to score the first agenda. You'd rather hold off until you can score a number in a row

Which hints his deck should hammer HQ and access a lot of cards there, so the corp fears holding multiple agendas waiting for a scoring window to score them all.
 
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Glenn Glenn
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If you have the source and keyhole isn't doing it for you,imp is a viable card to consider. It is less memory, and let's you trash agendas you find with the source and keep it on the table, which could be huge. Might solve some of your memory issues.

And if you want to keep underworld, helpful ai is a connection, And you can run 2 imp and 1 ai if you cut keyhole, chakanas, and the data sucker. That might let you cut the mem chips, too.

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Shane Ruman
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Okay, understand the deck theory more but still wonder if piling up agendas in Archives is going to work. High chance they're running 3 jackson's and 1 of them is going to come out to put those agendas back in by the time you've got a few in there. Do agree big HQ runs probably the way to go but when people see criminal they're going to ice HQ tight. Sneakdoor maybe to help with that? Of course with mostly central breakers, I'd probably switch strategies as corp by mid-game, give Ian the 2 and just start scoring -- 7 pts beats a big pile of money after all. Just my thoughts.
 
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Erin OConnor
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makes me want to score that big fat 3 point agenda first since I know you are going to let me have it.

Interesting against the new Jinteki that only needs 6 agenda points to win.

Should be some interesting games for sure. Keep us updated!
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Yi Sheng Siow
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wow this deck makes no sense...
 
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Lynk Fox
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I am just now working on my own version of a Central Only Ian Deck - let me show you my work:

Central Run Crim

Iain Stirling: Retired Spook (Honor and Profit)

Event (15)
3x Calling in Favors (Honor and Profit)
3x Hostage (Opening Moves)
3x Notoriety (Trace Amount) •••
3x Quest Completed (Fear and Loathing) ••••• •
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)

Hardware (3)
3x Doppelgänger (A Study in Static)

Resource (18)
2x Bank Job (Core Set)
2x Compromised Employee (Trace Amount)
2x Crash Space (Core Set)
3x Data Dealer (Core Set)
2x Fall Guy (Double Time)
2x John Masanori (Opening Moves)
3x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Tri-maf Contact (Honor and Profit)

Icebreaker (7)
2x Alias (Honor and Profit)
2x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Crypsis (Core Set)
2x Passport (Honor and Profit)

Program (2)
2x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)

9 influence spent (max 10)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Honor and Profit

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.



The idea here is if you are going to be hammering centrals, then take advantage of this. Notoriety to finish out the game or power Data Dealer. Quest Completed to grab that one card hanging out in a remote you want to get to - be it an agenda getting advanced, or a san san you want to trash.

I would like some multi access, and I think the place for that would be in a Medium, but influence wise... So for now, the idea of the deck is to score Notorieties and use QC to score when they try to.

But a combination of the two deck idea's could prove interesting...
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Bob Bobberson
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I love the OP's deck as a template for Iain, and I think he is the best Criminal ID to try sans Siphon.

As for Keyhole/Chakana, I wonder how cheap R&D runs will really be in order to sustain that focus. It's very easy to make those runs too expensive. The fear of Siphon may help, but Keyhole may be too much investment to pay off.

Emergency Shutdown may also be the answer. God it would be sweet if you could have Sneakdoor and HQ Interfaces too, but deck space is tight. You could power it with Feint..., Iain is on the card art, so it must be a good include, right?

The other reason I'm questioning Keyhole is to find influene for Professional Contacts, which seems like it will be so strong in an Iain deck. It and his ability will allow you to control just by having Crypsis down and a mountain of credits in the bank.

On the subject of control, the Source is so made for Iain. It'd be great to get Chakana working as well, and you might, though I do think Emergency Shutdown will be necessary to clear the way to R&D.

I suffer from the same obsession with Underworld Contacts, and I do believe it's a mistake. The three Dysons are taking up valuable spots, and you really should have 3 UContacts to maximize their ability. The only deck I've been happy with them in has been an Andromeda using Globalsec (playing burst econ, Globalsec, UC, UC my first turn was the dream), but I found that deck's goal was more about getting my passive econ down than it was about winning.

As for wasted slots, Data Dealer does seem like it has finally found a home in Iain decks, but its slot would probably be better filled with a different Connection, maybe a third Compromised Employee.

Lastly, I am a believer in Grappling Hook, E3, and even Copycat. (Side note: I think Grappling Hook will propel Copycat into the limelight.) I'm not sure, though, that this Iain deck is right for Grappling Hook. It is an obvious Siphon enabler as well as a great way to sneak into a remote. In contrast, your deck's focus is on control through The Source/Chakana, and you should be able to brute force your way into remotes with Crypsis and pals if needed. Maybe multiple Femmes would be better; you should be able to afford them.
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Allan Clements
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All Ian decks which try Underworld Contacts, should run Helpful AI. You can hostage for a Helpful AI, giving you 2 link. Then drop all those silly link cards, and have lots more deck space for other things.
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Andrew Keddie
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Thanks guys, some really solid ideas there.

@Kenobob: You could be right about the Grappling/E3 - assuming I can get a big enough pile of cash, then Crypsis/Femme should be enough to bust a hole into a remote. Emergency Shutdown is also a solid idea (and one I have considered).

@Kamikaze: The Dysons also serve as MU, which this deck does need extra of as-written to enable a full rig (although if I lost the UWC in favour of maybe Tri-Maf, and lost the Grappling Hooks then I could probably lose the link entirely. Hell, even Q-Coherence might be useful if I'm not messing with UWC!

@Lynkfox: I LOVE the idea of Notoriety/Quest Complete in a central-dominating deck! Don't know why I hadn't thought of it Also, do you not worry about landing an effective Bank Job with only Crypsis to get into a remote? Seems like you might spend as much as you gain...

@siowy: Care to elaborate?

@Echo2Omega: Yeah, I'd have to change playstyle against Harmony Medtech I think. Can't really rely on sitting back when you get to match point after one Agenda...

Biggest issues I can see with the deck as-is currently is cash - I might not have enough (this is a common problem I have with the first version of most decks I build - I think it comes of being an Anarch). I might swap out to Tri-Maf instead of UWC and see if I can't find a way to either run with just 5MU (losing the MU boosters) or find another solution to that issue.

I also feel like Legwork or HWI would be a good add-in (probably Legwork; the credit cost on HQI is just too much of a setback sometimes).
 
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Jonathan Trew
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I must say I do like the look of this deck.
Iain creates a really nice strategy space that had me picking up H&P even if there were no better cards.
Your centrals idea has certainly given me food for thought on my deck.
I like the Notoriety/QC suggestion that Lynkfox made and I also like the Source/Chakana route you've taken. I think either one would be too influence heavy for Iain to take both.
I'm imagining Chakana being put down with the source following a corp score, a few turns of fairly hard R&D/Keyhole/Imp runs to charge it up to 3+ and then sitting back and building your rig for an-all out final charge while saying to the corp: "So if you want to use this window to score you're going to have to hand me a another turn while you clear viruses".

My take on Iain is slightly more big-rig based and needs some testing:
http://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/3122/stirling-ideas-sugge...-

I've also made an iteration on it that needs some tweaking so it's not published and I've included 2x Hostage and 3x Security Testing after removing a pheromones. I also really want to fit a crash space and e3s in somewhere. I think the Inside men are probably the weakest link, but they really help Replicator and fuel CiF...

I totally think UWC are worth it, especially after seeing CiF spoiled. I've had them working in Kate big-rig for a while and think they're underrated. @Kamikaze - Dyson vs. Helpful was a consideration when I built Kate but in a deck where MU is needed and influence is very tight then my money would be on Dyson personally. With mine I chose Borrowed satellite as another way of getting link out there as that also increases hand size and the choice of the last 2 influence I always find the hardest.
I've been wondering about the interaction between Iain and Aesops? I would hard swap the Borrowed Satellite, but maybe if you included it you could ditch Chakana or something before the final archives runs? That way you get a total of 5 creds (if you're still behind) + UWC before the turn even starts and he also adds an extra credit to your 2 CiF.

Wow, that post got rather long :S
 
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Allan Clements
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I personally would cut things like datasucker and chakana. Then add in professional contacts.

Grappling Hook and E3 are nice, but since you have no recursion, it can only really be used twice and then e3 is mostly dead unless against bioroids. If you were going for a couple of big runs then it would make sense I think but you seem to want to run a lot more frequently than that.

I still think being able to use hostage to get your link out makes it much more reliable to use Underworld Contacts.

I have a few Iain deck ideas, but H&P is not out here yet or on OCTGN, so I am avoiding spending much time on it when it is hard to test
 
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Jonathan Trew
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Ah, skipped the datasucker the first read-through. Hmmm, that suddenly makes me think the use of the influence for Chakana isn't so good (obviously would need testing). Because of that and following Thomas R's reasoning I would personally drop one or both for Mr Li/Pro Contacts as you say.

I still think the OP's deck has the right of it with Dysons, as I can't really see the Dysons being a draw that you regret, whereas spending a hostage to pull Helpful AI might not be worth it in the long run. With only 1 UWC especially, I prefer having 3 as then you get the full benefit and at that point tutoring in the one link you need might not be so bad. The other problem is without recursion the 1-of Helpful AI suddenly becomes a massive target and if the corp manages to get you tagged, or scores character assassination, etc then there comes a problem, but removing 3 pieces of hardware is much harder. Besides which including AIs not only costs the influence for it, but also either requires more influence spent on another method of gaining MU, or the stripping of the support programs from the deck, something this deck would probably suffer for.

I'll look out for your Iain ideas Kamakaze
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Kamakaze wrote:
I have a few Iain deck ideas, but H&P is not out here yet or on OCTGN, so I am avoiding spending much time on it when it is hard to test


That's understandable I don't play on OCTGN (for one I don't like the interface, and for another a lot of games get slowed down on my end due to toddler interference). Thankfully I have the physical cards, but I won't be testing Iain until post-regional.

I see your point re: E3 and grappling. E3 still has some very limited uses with Breach, but the number of times it'll be relevant are VERY few (and only saves one credit) so those are good options to cut for more econ/Legwork.

I agree that Helpful AI to turn on UWC is not a bad idea - I worry though that I'm going to end up with too many Hostage targets and not enough Hostages I think I'm going to end up with a priority list for Hostage for anything I didn't get on draw

Honestly I think the decks biggest problems are MU and econ (once I actually swap in a Mr. Li or ProCon for draw). The full rig (central breakers, Crypsis, Femme, Keyhole and Chakana) comes to a whopping 8MU, which just doesn't seem feasible.

So, difficult choices I'm looking at - which programs to cut, and what to replace them with. Keyhole is the biggest MU hog - maybe I could cut it for DLR and use Masanori-tagging to turn it on (with Fall guys to protect it/The Source).

EDIT: Thinking about it, DLR instead of Keyhole also reduces how many successful runs I need... making the cost issue of central-breakers... well, less of an issue
 
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CommissarFeesh wrote:


@Lynkfox: I LOVE the idea of Notoriety/Quest Complete in a central-dominating deck! Don't know why I hadn't thought of it Also, do you not worry about landing an effective Bank Job with only Crypsis to get into a remote? Seems like you might spend as much as you gain...



Yeah. Honestly bank job is mostly in there to punish undefended asset economy by keeping me in the game. it's on the short list to be cut, possibly for an early bird. A pile of credits, early bird, and dopple will score you a notoriety or qc on your second click, or multiple ones one a single turn. Qc that 2 point agenda putting you at 6 and score notoriety is hilarious

That and dropping to just 2 data dealers leaves me enough room for 2 early bird's and 1 bank job. Between data dealer, calling in favors, and your base I'd, getting the money shouldn't be too bad. Becomes even stronger if the Corp is running any 3/1s

I still really want some form of rd multi access and I'm afraid that's going to come at the cost of a notoriety. That will free up one inf for 1 rd interface, ... But I miss the thought of possibly going from 4poibts to 7 in one turn with early bird and dopple. But that's a pipe dream anyways.


I'm still waiting for the criminal AI breaker. I expect it to be something like leviathan but I can hope it is at least as ok as crypsis.
 
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Okay after fiddling with it, here is what I've settled on to test for the next few weeks. The next tournament I'm going to will be Louisville, so long time to refine a deck (or see if this even /works/ hah)

Central Run Crim

Iain Stirling: Retired Spook (Honor and Profit)

Event (17)
3x Calling in Favors (Honor and Profit)
2x Early Bird (Honor and Profit)
3x Hostage (Opening Moves)
2x Notoriety (Trace Amount) ••
2x Quest Completed (Fear and Loathing) ••••
2x Special Order (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)

Hardware (5)
3x Doppelgänger (A Study in Static)
2x R&D Interface (Future Proof) ••••

Resource (15)
1x Bank Job (Core Set)
1x Compromised Employee (Trace Amount)
2x Crash Space (Core Set)
1x Data Dealer (Core Set)
2x Fall Guy (Double Time)
2x John Masanori (Opening Moves)
2x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)
2x Tri-maf Contact (Honor and Profit)

Icebreaker (7)
2x Alias (Honor and Profit)
2x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Crypsis (Core Set)
2x Passport (Honor and Profit)

Program (1)
1x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)

10 influence spent (max 10)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Honor and Profit

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.



The main interesting point here is that between Early Bird and or Dopple, you can recur the Quest Completed.

I'm not so sure about the Notoriety after forfeiting it to a Data Dealer. I think forfeiting it would remove it from the game, so that probably wouldn't work, but it could still be used if your Notoriety got net damaged or something
 
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