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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Top 3 "broken" heroes for each class? rss

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Johan Larsson
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Hello!

In future campaigns we're considering letting the heroes choose a class freely, and then the OL removes the most broken heroes for that class from the "pool" and the hero draws 5 heroes at random to choose from.

To that end, I'd be really interested in your opinions on which the 3 top most "broken heroes" in the game are for each class. "Broken" are for example anything with Nanok the Blade, spiritspeaker mok-prophet, Truthseer Kel as necromancer. Write as many as you can and feel like, sometimes there might be only one or two candidates.

Thank you for taking the time to answer! Easiest is probably to "quote" my post and delete this preface, then write below each class.

Classes

Mages

Necromancer
Truthseer Kel

Runemaster
Jaes the exile (?)
High Mage Quellen (?)

Hexer
High Mage Quellen (?)

Geomancer
High Mage Quellen
Landric the Wise

Conjurer
High Mage Quellen

Scouts

Thief

Wildlander
Tobin Farslayer

Treasure Hunter
Logan Lashley
Lindel

Shadow Walker

Stalker

Warriors

Knight
Nanok the Blade

Berserker
Nanok the Blade
Varikas the dead

Beastmaster
Nanok the Blade

Champion
Nanok the Blade

Skirmisher
Nanok the Blade
Laghin Buldar
Bauglir (?)

Healers

Disciple
Avric Albright, Elder Mok (after update)

Spiritseeker
Elder Mok

Apothecary
Elder Mok

Bard
Elder Mok

Prophet
Elder Mok
 
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alex
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Classes

Mages

Necromancer

Runemaster
Jaes the exile

Hexer

Geomancer

Conjurer

Scouts

Thief

Wildlander
Tobin Farslayer

Treasure Hunter
Lindel

Shadow Walker

Stalker

Warriors

Knight

Berserker
Varikas the dead

Beastmaster

Champion

Skirmisher

Healers

Disciple
Avric Albright, Elder Mok (after update)

Spiritspeaker

Apothecary
Aurim

Bard
Elder Mok (before update)

Prophet
 
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Norm Al
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AshesFall wrote:
Warriors

Knight
Nanok the Blade

Berserker
Nanok the Blade

Beastmaster
Nanok the Blade

Champion
Nanok the Blade

Skirmisher
Nanok the Blade


I approve of this
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Bob Holmstrom
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High Mage Quellen as any class really, but as a Conjurer, he can throw out 5 attacks in one turn in Act II. Give him a stamina potion and ring of power and he can move 10 spaces via fatigue and still throw down 5 attacks all with an extra green die.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I'm of the opinion that most heroes aren't broken for any of the classes (Nanok notwithstanding). Elder Mok as he exists in the Conversion Kit is a bit overpowered, but he's getting a nerf in Oath of the Outcast that brings him more in line with others.

I also wouldn't consider Jaes the Exile as a Runemaster *broken*, but that definitely is one of the top tier combinations. His Hero Ability (and to a lesser extent, his Heroic Feat) go really well with the Runemaster skills, but they aren't over the top.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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AshesFall wrote:

Skirmisher
Nanok the Blade

Bauglir, the guy who can treat a 2H Weapon as 1H, and thus utilize Skirmisher's skills greatly, is more broken than Nanok. I don't really think Nanok is that broken to begin with...

-shnar
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Dexter345 wrote:
Elder Mok as he exists in the Conversion Kit is a bit overpowered, but he's getting a nerf in Oath of the Outcast that brings him more in line with others.

Mok is crazy overpowered as he is now, with the right combinations. For example, make him a Bard, and have the Recover 1 Fatigue and 1 Health songs active, everyone around him recovers, and boom, Mok is insta-healed.

He definitely needed reworking, and once per round feels like it'd be a good compromise.

-shnar
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Darren Nakamura
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shnar wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
Elder Mok as he exists in the Conversion Kit is a bit overpowered, but he's getting a nerf in Oath of the Outcast that brings him more in line with others.

Mok is crazy overpowered as he is now, with the right combinations. For example, make him a Bard, and have the Recover 1 Fatigue and 1 Health songs active, everyone around him recovers, and boom, Mok is insta-healed.

He definitely needed reworking, and once per round feels like it'd be a good compromise.

-shnar


Sorry, as written on his Conversion Kit hero sheet he is overpowered. As he exists via unofficial errata (his hero ability kicks in only once per turn), he's fine. As he exists in Oath of the Outcast, his hero ability was toned down (or perhaps toned sideways) even more.
 
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Johan Larsson
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Thank you for the replies so far! Keep posting your candidates that you believe are broken or so good as to be borderline.
 
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Geomancer - Landric the Wise -- This is an incredibly powerful combo, basically allowing you to auto-trigger Landric's heroic feat and one-shot basically anything in the game. On top of that, the inherent defensiveness of the Geomancer class (sit back and let your stones do much of the work) covers Landric's inherent fragility. It's an incredibly powerful combo in the hands of a good player.

Alex, what makes you think Jaes the Exile is so powerful as a Runemaster? I just don't see it... I've never played him though, he always seems very weak to me.

Johan - are you just asking for the top 3 heroes for each class, or actual broken combos? Because there probably aren't three "broken" heroes for ANY class, let alone every class...

I would actually go ahead and put Elder Mok in the same rarefied strata as Nanok - broken for every class. I'm playing him in a campaign - and it says a lot about how powerful he is that even after being nerfed twice (we used the eratta'd version, then the new version) I'm STILL incredibly happy with his ability. He's just a beast. I'm using him as a prophet, but all of the Healer classes are stamina-intensive and benefit from a guy who can recover 5 stamina a round.
 
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Craig Bocketti
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amoshias wrote:
Geomancer - Landric the Wise -- This is an incredibly powerful combo, basically allowing you to auto-trigger Landric's heroic feat and one-shot basically anything in the game. On top of that, the inherent defensiveness of the Geomancer class (sit back and let your stones do much of the work) covers Landric's inherent fragility. It's an incredibly powerful combo in the hands of a good player.

Alex, what makes you think Jaes the Exile is so powerful as a Runemaster? I just don't see it... I've never played him though, he always seems very weak to me.

Johan - are you just asking for the top 3 heroes for each class, or actual broken combos? Because there probably aren't three "broken" heroes for ANY class, let alone every class...

I would actually go ahead and put Elder Mok in the same rarefied strata as Nanok - broken for every class. I'm playing him in a campaign - and it says a lot about how powerful he is that even after being nerfed twice (we used the eratta'd version, then the new version) I'm STILL incredibly happy with his ability. He's just a beast. I'm using him as a prophet, but all of the Healer classes are stamina-intensive and benefit from a guy who can recover 5 stamina a round.


My buddy played Jaes, he got inscribe rune that allowed each weapon to become a rune weapon, then he went for 2 one-handed weapons, that boosted his stamina to 5, then he got Iron will adding another stamina, then throw the ring of power on top of that and he could be sitting on 7 stamina. Not sure if broken, but its an awesome way to increase your stamina.

edit: equip mana weave and boost it to 8
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Johan Larsson
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amoshias wrote:


Johan - are you just asking for the top 3 heroes for each class, or actual broken combos? Because there probably aren't three "broken" heroes for ANY class, let alone every class...


Well, mostly broken, or just incredibly borderline good. There doesnt have to be one for every class either
 
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mustardayonnaiz wrote:

My buddy played Jaes, he got inscribe rune that allowed each weapon to become a rune weapon, then he went for 2 one-handed weapons, that boosted his stamina to 5, then he got Iron will adding another stamina, then throw the ring of power on top of that and he could be sitting on 7 stamina. Not sure if broken, but its an awesome way to increase your stamina,


Right, but you could just play a hero who has a stamina-increasing ability (Mad Carthos, High Mage Quellan) without the restriction... 7 base stamina is exciting, but functionally, probably strictly worse than either of those other two. (IE, you will probably get more than 7 stamina out of Mad Carthos before you have to rest.)
 
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JH
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Lord Hawthorne strikes me as a really strong Skirmisher — he's not as fast as some, but he can Reach with every one-handed weapon, would have access to both surge abilities of whatever he's equipped with, his feat provides two attacks and some movement paired with a class that already multiplies attacks and movement, etc.

One Fist is probably the worst choice you could make for a Skirmisher.
 
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Johan Larsson
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Updated the first post to reflect current suggestions, with a (?) added where there has been some more serious debate.

To clarify: Only combos you consider "broken" or "So good as to be severely unbalancing" are an issue here. Thanks a lot for your help so far!

I'll submit a candidate, Arvel Worldwalker as treasure hunter?
 
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AshesFall wrote:
I'll submit a candidate, Arvel Worldwalker as treasure hunter?


Why Avrel? (As a suggestion to everyone, it's probably helpful if you give some idea of what your reasoning is.)

I'm not seeing any specific synergy, and to my eyes, Avrel is massively inferior to Lindel - so if the idea is "best able to take advantage of secret rooms" I'd take Lindel any day of the week. Avrel's basic ability is *slightly* better, unless you want to make more than one test in a turn. Lindel's Move and Stamina are much better, and his heroic feat is much, MUCH better. Not that Lindel's feat is so great, but Avrel's is TERRIBLE.
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Johan Larsson
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amoshias wrote:
AshesFall wrote:
I'll submit a candidate, Arvel Worldwalker as treasure hunter?


Why Avrel? (As a suggestion to everyone, it's probably helpful if you give some idea of what your reasoning is.)

I'm not seeing any specific synergy, and to my eyes, Avrel is massively inferior to Lindel - so if the idea is "best able to take advantage of secret rooms" I'd take Lindel any day of the week. Avrel's basic ability is *slightly* better, unless you want to make more than one test in a turn. Lindel's Move and Stamina are much better, and his heroic feat is much, MUCH better. Not that Lindel's feat is so great, but Avrel's is TERRIBLE.


That's a good thought, some motivation.

With the re-roll to skill tests and consistent stats Avrel does become extremely difficult to interfere with, allowing her to grab all the treasure tokens unimpeded.

Though, I think I actually agree. Avrel probably doesnt qualify for this list.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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mustardayonnaiz wrote:
My buddy played Jaes, he got inscribe rune that allowed each weapon to become a rune weapon, then he went for 2 one-handed weapons, that boosted his stamina to 5, then he got Iron will adding another stamina, then throw the ring of power on top of that and he could be sitting on 7 stamina. Not sure if broken, but its an awesome way to increase your stamina.

edit: equip mana weave and boost it to 8


Give him the Handbow too, bump it up to 9.
 
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Craig Bocketti
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Dexter345 wrote:
mustardayonnaiz wrote:
My buddy played Jaes, he got inscribe rune that allowed each weapon to become a rune weapon, then he went for 2 one-handed weapons, that boosted his stamina to 5, then he got Iron will adding another stamina, then throw the ring of power on top of that and he could be sitting on 7 stamina. Not sure if broken, but its an awesome way to increase your stamina.

edit: equip mana weave and boost it to 8


Give him the Handbow too, bump it up to 9.


But that would be 3 trinkets other items
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Oh yeah, dang.
 
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Tristan Angeles

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Why do I never hear love for steelhorns. Yes, he's not the biggest cannon to do damage, and doesn't have a ridiculous combo with any of the classes, but overall his mobility and ability to ignore blocking tactics make him a more useful hero overall.
 
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The RedEye wrote:
Why do I never hear love for steelhorns. Yes, he's not the biggest cannon to do damage, and doesn't have a ridiculous combo with any of the classes, but overall his mobility and ability to ignore blocking tactics make him a more useful hero overall.


I actually started a "heroes that are underrated" thread in the Strategy section. If you think he deserves some love, go and say why! But, in this case - Steelhorns doesn't go on the "broken heroes" list because he's got lousy stats, a nearly-worthless ability, and a heroic feat that's interesting but not particularly strong.
 
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Tristan Angeles

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Nearly worthless ability? many heroes spend more than one fatigue to get into position so they can attack. He does this with one fatigue to get double movement and an attack. It's pretty close to the Berzerker class's charge, but it's for 1 fatigue instead of 2.

His feat invalidates one of the primary tactics of slowing down heroes. Blocking. As the usual OL, I often have to change the monsters I pick because of him. Large monsters beware, they can be lifted between heroes for pincer, or be moved two rooms away because it's the nearest valid empty space.

Steelhorns changes the dynamic of race type encounters. If he's undervalued by other players, hey, I'm the overlord, better for me.

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The RedEye wrote:
Nearly worthless ability? many heroes spend more than one fatigue to get into position so they can attack. He does this with one fatigue to get double movement and an attack. It's pretty close to the Berzerker class's charge, but it's for 1 fatigue instead of 2.


That's interesting - I didn't think about it that way. Any time that you would normally "move action, take 2 sweat, attack" you can double move, waste the extra two movement points, and attack, saving a sweat. It only lets you do a basic attack - doesn't let you use an attack skill - but you can't have everything. Good point.

I'm still not super-impressed by it - all that means is that you're saving a few stamina, once or twice an encounter. If you add that to the once every few quests you will actually get by-hoyle extra action out of it, it's definitely better than I though, but still not particularly impressive. (And nowhere near as good as berzerker's Charge skill - not the least of reasons being that berzerkers can charge on their first action, and can do it twice a turn.)

The feat I'm still not impressed by. It hardly "invalidates" the tactic of blocking the heroes. It does force the overlord to adapt - no doubt - but a smart overlord will adapt without a problem. Once in a long while it will definitely win a game, but that's true about most heroic feats. Every time a hero activates Steelhorns' feat, they're NOT activating Syndarel's, so I'd be happy about that :-)

Although it might be worth playing him - as a Berzerker, or in a party with a ton of blast - just so you could use his feat to "round up" a bunch of monsters and set them up for a huge blast or whirlwind attack :-)

 
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Tristan Angeles

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While berzerker's charge is better, it does have two downsides. First, you have to be a berserker, second you spend xp to get it. Steelhorns essentially has a third action for the cost of one fatigue that he can constantly do.

And I stand by the argument that the feat invalidates blocking. Most encounters truly only allow the OL to block with one group. The other groups work on objectives. You only need to get past that one group, usually the initial group. Even if you use the feat to move them to allow the other heroes to get past and turn around to fight them, the damage is done.

Let's Quick look at the missions.
-Fat Goblin pt 1, feat destroys blocking. In pt 2, no need to break through because splig is trying to get through you, should he be able to, use the feat to trap him again.
-Castle Daerion is so spread apart that blocking isn't an issue.
-Cardinal's plight pt 1 only has that narrow area to block effectively, so one use of the feat works. In pt 2, one search token is right by the door, ready to search, making the other place to get the unique key the only real place you would need to block.
-Masquarade's ball pt 1 has one intersection where the only point of contention can be. Pt 2 has doors that monsters can't open, so running past with the feat, testing with his level 5 might and closing the door is useful.
-Death on the wing pt 1 is a small and quick race, feat definitely helps and is so short that you really only have to get past one monster group and then use the feat to knock away the other group. Pt 2, okay, the feat is useless there.

As I said, steelhorns doesn't shine in damage dealing. He's a team player with great utility in actually completing the mission. If you still don't agree that he pretty much destroys the OL's tactic of blocking, I hope you agree that it severely handicaps it. And really, a handicap of that magnitude is a pretty severe blow.

As for the class, I would actually pick skirmisher with him. Most skirmisher attacks work with regular melee attacks. Dual Strike, Unrelenting, Unstoppable all work with his ability.
 
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