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Subject: Bloodletter upgrade question rss

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Haz Dhim
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This question came up the first time we were playing the game, when we were still figuring out how everything works. My apologies if it's just a silly, silly question

So Khorne's Bloodletter upgrade reads: "In battle, your Bloodletters roll their battle dice and inflict any casualties before other figures roll their dice". From the rules, I understand this means Khorne's bloodletters provide early hits, so the casualties don't provide battle dice for their respective gods in the rest of the battle phase.

If, for example, a Khorne warrior and a Khorne greater daemon hang out in the same region, the following happens:

Khorne's warrior rolls first. Casualties are removed, granting no battle dice. Then the greater daemon rolls. If the hits from Khorne's warrior were insufficient to kill someone, they can be added to those of the greater daemon. In that case, their casualties do provide battle dice for the other gods.

But in this last case, am I correct that Khorne already has to assign the insufficient hits to specific targets, before he can roll his greater daemon dice? Or can he choose to roll with the greater daemon, and assign all hits afterwards?

An example: there's a Slaanech warrior and greater daemon in the same region as Khorne. Khorne really wants to kill the greater daemon. Khorne's warrior rolls two hits. Khorne can choose between killing the Slaanech warrior (so no dice), or transferring his hits and adding them to those of his greater daemon. He transfers. The greater daemon rolls, but gets no hits.

Would the result be that Khorne kills no one (where he would have without the Bloodletter upgrade and the early hits rule) because his early hits were already assigned to the enemy greater daemon, or can he still decide to kill the warrior after all? And if the last option is correct, would the fallen warrior still provide battle dice for Slaanech?

I sincerely hope I managed to make myself clear

Thanks for your insights!
 
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David F
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You roll the dice for all your figures at once. There is no distinction between hits caused by the Bloodletter or hits caused by the Bloodthirster. As long as you have a Bloodletter in that region, your upgrade triggers if you kill anybody with any battle dice.

Note that you must also always kill figures if possible, instead of 'wasting/saving' them on somebody with more than 1 health. Peasants can provide some flexibility with who you don't want to kill when they're in the region.


Never mind, I thought you were asking about the Bloodletter upgrade in the expansion.
 
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victor araujo
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Page 16 of the rule book answers this specifically.

In this case you roll all the Bloodletter dice first, any and remove any kills from the battle right away. Then you roll any dice for the rest of your figures.

Early hits are a special case, they are cumulative with hits scored later by the same player.

So the steps are"
1. Roll the Bloodletter dice first by themselves.
2. Assign any hits and removing killed figures.
3. Roll all the dice of your other figures in that area.
4. Assign any hits and tip over killed figures, these figures stay til the end of combat.

In this case, if the Bloodletters can land an early hits on a Greater Demon but not kill it. Then when you roll the rest of your attacks, you can add it to the previous hits. At this point the Greater Demon would not be removed from the board right away and will have a chance to strike back.

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David F
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You didn't actually answer his question...

FWIW, I think Khorne is forced to kill the Warrior with the early battle. 'Storing up hits' is allowed only if there are no other killable targets. I don't think the Warrior gets to fight back (it's killed, not tipped over).
 
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Gert Meyer
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I feel you should not be forced to assign early hits based on the "must kill if able" rule. Any hits not used for early kills are simply transformed into regular hits to be assigned together with any other hits during the first round of battle.

Early dice should be a pure advantage, not a limitation.
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Pas L
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selwyth wrote:
You didn't actually answer his question...

FWIW, I think Khorne is forced to kill the Warrior with the early battle. 'Storing up hits' is allowed only if there are no other killable targets. I don't think the Warrior gets to fight back (it's killed, not tipped over).


It's never been my understanding that you're forced to kill a target. You can store up hits all you like.
 
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victor araujo
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You are only forced to assign hits, not actually kill. If you assign early hits to something you dont kill and your remaining attacks don't grant you more hits, you do not retroactivly reassign the earlier hits. So if a weaker unit is in the area, your out of luck and it lives.
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Haz Dhim
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imjodokast wrote:
You are only forced to assign hits, not actually kill. If you assign early hits to something you dont kill and your remaining attacks don't grant you more hits, you do not retroactivly reassign the earlier hits. So if a weaker unit is in the area, your out of luck and it lives.


... meaning you might be worse off with the upgrade than without, in certain situations

Anyway, thanks for all the input, you guys! This really cleared things up
 
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Linc Osborne
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From the FAQ:

Quote:
Q: With the Khorne card Reborn in Blood, do hits from one battle carry over into the second battle?
A: No. Even though enemy figures are not removed from the board until all players have completed the Battle Phase in the
region, a player may not assign fewer hits to a figure than are necessary to kill it. Hits are not ‘‘stored up’’ to combine hits with
other players or effects.


So I think you do actually have to assign kills.



 
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Alex H.
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Gaedr wrote:
imjodokast wrote:
You are only forced to assign hits, not actually kill. If you assign early hits to something you dont kill and your remaining attacks don't grant you more hits, you do not retroactivly reassign the earlier hits. So if a weaker unit is in the area, your out of luck and it lives.


... meaning you might be worse off with the upgrade than without, in certain situations

Anyway, thanks for all the input, you guys! This really cleared things up


I don't think so.
This is how I read the rules and how I play it:
Roll dice for early hits. Kill or don't kill anything you may legally kill. If you don't use all of your hits they are stored for the next rolls (regular combat dice of the remaining combat units). After you rolled these, distribute all (!) hits still unassigned.

Example:

Khorne has 2 warriors and 3 combat-capable cultists.
Nurgle has 3 warriors and 1 greater deamon.

1. Khorne rolls first for his upgraged warriors. He is hoping to kill the deamon. He gets 2 hits. He decides to kill 1 of Nurgle's warriors which is removed from the map.

2. Khorne rolls 3 more dice for his cultists and gets no hits. He tips over 1 more of Nurgle's warriors (this is the one hit from the early dice he didn't use because was hoping to kill the greater deamon). Then Nurgle rolls for the Great Unclean One, his standing warrior and the downed warrior and applies the resulting hits.

From experience, however, I have found that Khorne usually will want to kill as many enemies as possible using his early hits.

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Dystopian Dreamer
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So I realize that this is an old thread, but since I'm not seeing the correct answer, I'm going to reply.

On page 18 of the rulebook, in the "Combat Example: A complicated Fight" box, it has an example which addresses this situation.

First 'beginning of battle' effects are resolved. In the given example a total of 2 wounds were scored from a 'Blood Frenzy' card (Khorn). In the region Nurgle has a Great Unclean one, 2 Plaguebearers and a Leper. A 'Rain of Pus' card is also in play increasing Nurgle defense by 1.

Khorn decides to apply the two hits against a Plaguebearer to kill it. However, the example goes onto state that "(Khorn) could have elected, as an alternate strategy, to apply his two hits to (Nurgle's) Great Unclean One, in hopes of rolling at least two more hits to eliminate that figure in the main part of the battle phase."

This is consistent with the 'Early Hits' rules presented on page 16 where it says "However, early hits are also cumulative with hits rolled by the same player's figures when regular battle dice are rolled. This is an exception to the normal rule that hits may not be "stored up" (see page 17)."

In the example provided by Linc Osborne above in this thread, he references a FAQ answer concerning 'Reborn in Blood' saying hits are not carried over. This is a different situation, as 'Reborn in Blood' causes a second battle to occur in the same region, and as such are not 'beginning of battle' effects.
 
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