Kevin Worth
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Ok, so it seems that the combat example is wrong and that KO'd characters get to resolve 'take damage' effects. That still leaves some questions though

Iron Man A 5/7 vs Iron Man B 3/5
B gets a +1D from a global
Assign damage, A hits B for 5, B hits A for 3
A 5/4, B 3/1
Resolve effects, attacker first
A hits B for 3, KOs B
B has taken damage twice
B hits A for 3 (Is this due to A's ability or A's assign damage? Doesn't matter in this case but nice to know if resolving A's effect completely means resolving effects it triggers)
B hits A for 3
KO's A

OR does B only get to hit A once with his ability so A is not KO'd

OR

Iron Man A 5/7 vs Iron Man B 3/5
B gets a +1D from a global
Assign damage, A hits B for 5, B hits A for 3
A 5/4, B 3/1
Resolve effects, attacker first
A hits B for 3 which triggers
B hits A for 3 which triggers
and on and on and where does it stop

This last one doesn't make sense but it means the 'take damage' is not an instant response and if its not an instant response then I am wondering on the details of how a KO'd (or going to be KO'd) character gets to resolve its ability.

I suspect these questions will annoy some people in which case please just ignore them.

Is it because abilities are always available even if there is not a die of that type anywhere on the board?
Is it because once abilities are triggered they are put into a queue (or stack) and wait there, never go away, until they are resolved?
Is it because the KO really a special zone where characters can still resolve their effects even though they are not active? And if so is the KO part of the Prep Zone or an entirely separate zone?

Finally does resolving an effect mean immediately resolving any further effects triggered by the first effect (or are any further events put into a stack)?
 
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Heath K
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I believe your 1st example would be correct. Each time the effect triggers, you control the effect. I don't think there is a "stack", so to speak, but when you control multiple effects, you decide in which order to resolve them. The player who's turn it is resolves their effects first completely.

It's on Page 20 of the Rule Book, under Timing Conflicts.

So, you could have multiple effects trigger for you before the primary player resolves all of their effects. Then you can decide which effects to resolve in which order.
 
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John Galietta III
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Yeah, based on page 8, it says damage effects happen. However, the book says to Knock out each character that takes damage equal to or greater than their defense, which I believe would happen between effects. Here is my interpretation:

Combat happens:

IM A = 4D
IM B = 1D

Quote:
Abilities floating: A, B

A takes priority and deals damage to B, B is KOd, B's ability is activated and then it is sent to the prep area.

Abilities floating: Bx2

B deals 3 damage to A, A = 1D, activates A's ability

Abilities floating: A, B

A takes priority back and deals 3 damage to another target if able.

Abilities floating: B

B deals 3 damage to A, A is KOd, A's ability is activated and then it is sent to the prep area.

Abilities floating: A

A deals 3 damage to another target if able.

End exchange


It's long and convoluted, but based on the timing rules, this seems the answer to me.
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Ian Churchill
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Kworth wrote:
Ok, so it seems that the combat example is wrong


Who said this? WizKids? Why is it wrong?

A and B assign and resolve damage. Neither are KO'd. They both then get to use their abilities for taking damage. B is KO'd and does not get to use his ability again because he was KO'd. A could use his ability again on another character. That's how I'd play it.
 
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Kevin Worth
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Thanks, its making some sense to me now. Answering my own questions

Quote:

Is it because once abilities are triggered they are put into a queue (or stack) and wait there, never go away, until they are resolved?

Yes, essentially. Its more of a cloud than a queue. Any game events (resolve damage, KO, etc ...) float to the top, any attacker items float to top after game events, defender items always sink to bottom and are resolved only when there is nothing else to resolve.
Quote:
Does resolving an effect mean immediately resolving any further effects triggered by the first effect (or are any further events put into a stack)?

See above, triggered events go into a cloud and wait for the appropriate resolution time.

Quote:

Is it because abilities are always available even if there is not a die of that type anywhere on the board?
Is it because the KO really a special zone where characters can still resolve their effects even though they are not active? And if so is the KO part of the Prep Zone or an entirely separate zone?

Abilities on the cards are always available. At this point it makes no difference because every ability has either "While active" or something in it that can only happen while it was/is active.

The KO zone is part of the Prep zone and has no special capabilities.
 
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damageinc wrote:
Kworth wrote:
Ok, so it seems that the combat example is wrong


Who said this? WizKids? Why is it wrong?

A and B assign and resolve damage. Neither are KO'd. They both then get to use their abilities for taking damage. B is KO'd and does not get to use his ability again because he was KO'd. A could use his ability again on another character. That's how I'd play it.


'This will give Thor enough damage to knock out Iron Man before he can use his card text again.'
from the combat example is incorrect.

Information provided by Rodney from Watch It Played who presumably has contacts within WizKids.

Also this poster
Carwine-Al wrote:
The owner of my FLGS contacted a high ranking official from Whizkids. The official stated that the example in the rule book was incorrect. Iron Man's effect for taking damage does happen even if knocked out.


Nothing official yet but I'm not going to spend any more time arguing against it.

But I did want to clarify how a game with no stack and no simultaneous events (except for resolve damage) could have knocked out (inactive) characters using their abilities.

The answer is that there is indeed a stack. You can't voluntarily add to it and its not a first in - first out stack but it is essentially a stack.
 
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Kworth wrote:
Iron Man A 5/7 vs Iron Man B 3/5
B gets a +1D from a global
Assign damage, A hits B for 5, B hits A for 3
A 5/4, B 3/1
Resolve effects, attacker first
A hits B for 3 which triggers
B hits A for 3 which triggers
and on and on and where does it stop?


Well, one thing I would say is since Defense can never go below zero, that once an Ironman is below zero, he really can't take damage anymore and therefore wouldn't trigger his ability. We've established (with the help of WizKids) that the example is misleading and you can deal a counterpunch even while getting knocked out, but subsequent to that, I'm not sure the "take damage" ability would activate since there is no way to take more damage.

So going by your example,

A is 5/7 and B is 3/6

first you assign combat damage

A is 5/4 and B is 3/1

Since both took damage, next you each take a turn to deal a counterstrike.

A is 5/1 and B is 3/0

B is knocked out, but since both again took damage, each one will again deal a counterstrike.

A is 5/0 and B is 3/0

Both are now knocked out, but this time only A took damage. So A delivers a counter to some other fielded character, which finishes his action.

B was unable to "take damage" since he was already at zero and defense can't go below zero. B does not deal a counterstrike because he took no damage.


In sum, playing with Ironman seems to be a real pain in the ass.


Look like I got ninja'd.
 
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Ian Churchill
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Kworth wrote:
damageinc wrote:
Kworth wrote:
Ok, so it seems that the combat example is wrong


Who said this? WizKids? Why is it wrong?

A and B assign and resolve damage. Neither are KO'd. They both then get to use their abilities for taking damage. B is KO'd and does not get to use his ability again because he was KO'd. A could use his ability again on another character. That's how I'd play it.


'This will give Thor enough damage to knock out Iron Man before he can use his card text again.'
from the combat example is incorrect.

Information provided by Rodney from Watch It Played who presumably has contacts within WizKids.

Also this poster
Carwine-Al wrote:
The owner of my FLGS contacted a high ranking official from Whizkids. The official stated that the example in the rule book was incorrect. Iron Man's effect for taking damage does happen even if knocked out.


Nothing official yet but I'm not going to spend any more time arguing against it.

But I did want to clarify how a game with no stack and no simultaneous events (except for resolve damage) could have knocked out (inactive) characters using their abilities.

The answer is that there is indeed a stack. You can't voluntarily add to it and its not a first in - first out stack but it is essentially a stack.


Do you have a link to the info by Rodney from Watch it Played? I would like to see that.
 
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Kevin Worth
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Its in this thread
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1145142/confused-by-the-deta...
 
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Ian Churchill
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Kworth wrote:


Nice. When I get home I'm going to mark out that sentence in the rulebook.
 
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jhoratio wrote:

Well, one thing I would say is since Defense can never go below zero, that once an Ironman is below zero, he really can't take damage anymore and therefore wouldn't trigger his ability.


Good point. Leads to the these questions
Is being reduced to 0 the same as being KO'd?
If not what happens first KO or 'take damage' effects?

The specific example is Hulk's taking damage +2A/+2D ability.
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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Kworth wrote:
jhoratio wrote:

Well, one thing I would say is since Defense can never go below zero, that once an Ironman is below zero, he really can't take damage anymore and therefore wouldn't trigger his ability.


Good point. Leads to the these questions
Is being reduced to 0 the same as being KO'd?
If not what happens first KO or 'take damage' effects?

The specific example is Hulk's taking damage +2A/+2D ability.


Being reduced to 0 is indeed a KO. The rules explain that on page 19 under bonuses and damage, "However, if a die’s defense is reduced to zero, it is knocked out (because it has taken damage greater than or equal to its defense of zero)."

If Hulk takes damage then his effect activates. So after all damage is dealt, compare total damage to his defense. If the total damage is equal or greater than his defense, he is KO'd.

If Hulk takes damage twice, then his effect activates twice and he gets +4/4. After all damage is dealt check if he survives or not based on the bonus +4/4 (or whatever bonus he has received from taking damage X many times).
 
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Starsplice wrote:
Kworth wrote:
jhoratio wrote:

Well, one thing I would say is since Defense can never go below zero, that once an Ironman is below zero, he really can't take damage anymore and therefore wouldn't trigger his ability.


Good point. Leads to the these questions
Is being reduced to 0 the same as being KO'd?
If not what happens first KO or 'take damage' effects?

The specific example is Hulk's taking damage +2A/+2D ability.


Being reduced to 0 is indeed a KO. The rules explain that on page 19 under bonuses and damage, "However, if a die’s defense is reduced to zero, it is knocked out (because it has taken damage greater than or equal to its defense of zero)."

If Hulk takes damage then his effect activates. So after all damage is dealt, compare total damage to his defense. If the total damage is equal or greater than his defense, he is KO'd.

If Hulk takes damage twice, then his effect activates twice and he gets +4/4. After all damage is dealt check if he survives or not based on the bonus +4/4 (or whatever bonus he has received from taking damage X many times).


This would make Hulk actually impossible to knockout. Anytime you got him to zero, damage taken would cease, and then he would get +2D.

For example, a 16 attack "Silver Surfer: Sky Rider" would bring Hulk from 8D to zero. Then Hulk would get +2D and survive.

Thematically, not sure I'd have a problem with this actually. Time to build some Nick Fury free Hulk teams!

 
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Kevin Worth
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Starsplice wrote:
Kworth wrote:
jhoratio wrote:

Well, one thing I would say is since Defense can never go below zero, that once an Ironman is below zero, he really can't take damage anymore and therefore wouldn't trigger his ability.


Good point. Leads to the these questions
Is being reduced to 0 the same as being KO'd?
If not what happens first KO or 'take damage' effects?

The specific example is Hulk's taking damage +2A/+2D ability.


Being reduced to 0 is indeed a KO. The rules explain that on page 19 under bonuses and damage, "However, if a die’s defense is reduced to zero, it is knocked out (because it has taken damage greater than or equal to its defense of zero)."

If Hulk takes damage then his effect activates. So after all damage is dealt, compare total damage to his defense. If the total damage is equal or greater than his defense, he is KO'd.

If Hulk takes damage twice, then his effect activates twice and he gets +4/4. After all damage is dealt check if he survives or not based on the bonus +4/4 (or whatever bonus he has received from taking damage X many times).


You've captured the point of my questions with this last example because it contradicts what you say at first.

Is being reduced to 0 the same as KO?
Yes then Hulk does not get his bonus because he is KO'd (even if he does it doesn't matter because he's been KO'd)
 
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J. H. Horatio
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And you have herein captured my original point (similar to yours) that it really doesn't make much sense for abilities to fire post KO.

Makes the game just a tad too confusing for its own good and makes these kinds of characters a pain in the ass to play.

Personally, I think WizKids got it right in the Thor example as opposed to what they are saying, but I guess that ship has sailed...

 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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Kworth wrote:
Starsplice wrote:
Kworth wrote:
jhoratio wrote:

Well, one thing I would say is since Defense can never go below zero, that once an Ironman is below zero, he really can't take damage anymore and therefore wouldn't trigger his ability.


Good point. Leads to the these questions
Is being reduced to 0 the same as being KO'd?
If not what happens first KO or 'take damage' effects?

The specific example is Hulk's taking damage +2A/+2D ability.


Being reduced to 0 is indeed a KO. The rules explain that on page 19 under bonuses and damage, "However, if a die’s defense is reduced to zero, it is knocked out (because it has taken damage greater than or equal to its defense of zero)."

If Hulk takes damage then his effect activates. So after all damage is dealt, compare total damage to his defense. If the total damage is equal or greater than his defense, he is KO'd.

If Hulk takes damage twice, then his effect activates twice and he gets +4/4. After all damage is dealt check if he survives or not based on the bonus +4/4 (or whatever bonus he has received from taking damage X many times).


You've captured the point of my questions with this last example because it contradicts what you say at first.

Is being reduced to 0 the same as KO?
Yes then Hulk does not get his bonus because he is KO'd (even if he does it doesn't matter because he's been KO'd)


I have yet to contradict myself and you should read carefully before you say that. My example is clear as to how the effect works.

1) Hulk takes damage
2) Hulk gains +2/2
3) Hulk takes MORE damage
4) Hulk gains +2/2
5) Is the damage dealt MORE than Hulk with a +4/4 bonus?
Yes) Then KO
No) Hulk goes back to the owner's field

Is being reduced to 0 the same as KO?
Yes it is, because Dr Doom kills off sidekicks. You have been a part of this conversation. I thought this was clear about how negative modifiers that reduce defense to 0 induces KO.
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Starsplice wrote:
Kworth wrote:
Starsplice wrote:
Kworth wrote:
jhoratio wrote:

Well, one thing I would say is since Defense can never go below zero, that once an Ironman is below zero, he really can't take damage anymore and therefore wouldn't trigger his ability.


Good point. Leads to the these questions
Is being reduced to 0 the same as being KO'd?
If not what happens first KO or 'take damage' effects?

The specific example is Hulk's taking damage +2A/+2D ability.


Being reduced to 0 is indeed a KO. The rules explain that on page 19 under bonuses and damage, "However, if a die’s defense is reduced to zero, it is knocked out (because it has taken damage greater than or equal to its defense of zero)."

If Hulk takes damage then his effect activates. So after all damage is dealt, compare total damage to his defense. If the total damage is equal or greater than his defense, he is KO'd.

If Hulk takes damage twice, then his effect activates twice and he gets +4/4. After all damage is dealt check if he survives or not based on the bonus +4/4 (or whatever bonus he has received from taking damage X many times).


You've captured the point of my questions with this last example because it contradicts what you say at first.

Is being reduced to 0 the same as KO?
Yes then Hulk does not get his bonus because he is KO'd (even if he does it doesn't matter because he's been KO'd)


I have yet to contradict myself and you should read carefully before you say that. My example is clear as to how the effect works.

1) Hulk takes damage
2) Hulk gains +2/2
3) Hulk takes MORE damage
4) Hulk gains +2/2
5) Is the damage dealt MORE than Hulk with a +4/4 bonus?
Yes) Then KO
No) Hulk goes back to the owner's field

Is being reduced to 0 the same as KO?
Yes it is, because Dr Doom kills off sidekicks. You have been a part of this conversation. I thought this was clear about how negative modifiers that reduce defense to 0 induces KO.


I don't agree with your treatment of Hulk. First assign damage in combat. Hulk can only absorb as much damage as he has Defense. So once he gets to zero, damage ceases to be taken. He then gets +2D. There's no spill over damage from the first attack, is there? Because it certainly seems to me that Hulk gets to zero (knocked out) but then gets another +2D so then isn't knocked out.
 
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Kevin Worth
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Sorry Jon, you did not contradict yourself. I apologize.

My first question was worded incorrectly and should be:
Is taking damage equal to your defence the same as KO?

and the second one still applies
If not what happens first KO or 'take damage' effect?

From Jon's example the answers are: No and 'take damage' happens first

Which gives us Anger Issues Hulk who can not be knocked out by taking damage. That's cool but doesn't seem right.
 
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Jim Hansen
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jhoratio wrote:
I don't agree with your treatment of Hulk. First assign damage in combat. Hulk can only absorb as much damage as he has Defense. So once he gets to zero, damage ceases to be taken. He then gets +2D. There's no spill over damage from the first attack, is there? Because it certainly seems to me that Hulk gets to zero (knocked out) but then gets another +2D so then isn't knocked out.

Taking damage is not the same as reducing defense. If you reduce his defense to 0 from some effects, he isn't taking damage so his ability wouldn't trigger and he would die. If you hit him for 20 damage, his ability would trigger but he would have less than 20 defense so he would die. Two very different situations that I think you are confusing.
 
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Kevin Worth
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Ahhh, got it.

Resolving damage is not D - damage, less than equal to 0 is KO
It is damage >= D

So the comment that prompted my 2nd round of questions was incorrect.

But I still think
Hulk takes damage
Hulk gains +2A/+2D
Check for KO

is incorrect because then we do have the Iron Man infinite battle

A takes damages
A hits B
B hits A
A hits B
...

So KO has to happen before effects

 
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Hulk's ability is also "while active". So if you can do enough damage at once to KO him he will not survive to get his +2D bonus. Don't poke the beast you will make him angry.
 
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John Galietta III
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My interpretation of the rulebook is that KO happens immediately upon the character reaching 0D (unless in the MIDDLE of an effect, then complete the effect and then check for KO, if being reduced to 0D would INITIATE an effect, KO first). Being KO'd is not an effect, so it doesn't go into the timing rules. So I believe the above example would go:

Hulk is at 3D
Hulk takes 2 damage (1D)
Hulk's ability triggers from taking damage
resolve ability, Hulk Gets +2D (3D)
Hulk takes 3 damage (0D)
Hulk's ability triggers from taking damage
Hulk is at 0D and immediately is KOd
resolve ability, Hulk is no longer fielded, effect has no target and fizzles
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stubobj wrote:
Hulk's ability is also "while active". So if you can do enough damage at once to KO him he will not survive to get his +2D bonus. Don't poke the beast you will make him angry.


Yes, the "when active" language is important and distinguishes this ability from Ironman's counterstrike ability (which has no such language). I hadn't picked up on this before but I think you're right.
 
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