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Subject: Analysis Paralysis rss

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Chris Ley
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I'm new to BGG, so I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but how do you speed up a persons play without being rude.

I have one friend in my gaming group that suffers from analysis paralysis. We play Axis and Allies a lot, but even though he's played hundreds of times his turn easily takes 3 times as long as everyone else. Every time someone suggests that he just make a decision he gets mad that we are trying to rush him. I usually suggest he start thinking about his turn before it's actually his turn, but he is incapable thinking several phases ahead. i.e. he can only plan out his buy phase and not his movement phase in advance.

Any suggestions, besides not playing with him? I know it might be impossible, but thought I might get some suggestions.
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Curt Carpenter
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My go to strategy: "Sorry, whose turn is it?"
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Bill Eldard
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Quote:
I'm new to BGG, so I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but how do you speed up a persons play without being rude


Yeah, the subject has been discussed as long as BGG has.

curtc wrote:
My go to strategy: "Sorry, whose turn is it?"


Those kind of hints can work, but there are some APers who will not take the hint or reform.

If he is the unreformable type, there's probably little you can do except stop playing with him anymore. Seems drastic, but if other gamers keep annoying you, often the only recourse is to stop gaming with them.
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Shelby Buttimer
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We have one of those.

"It's Munchkin for pity's sake! You don't have to take five minutes to decide what to do! It won't matter, I promise!"

I bring my knitting and I knit between my turns. It helps my patience.

Edit: I would also like to add that this guy considerately opts out of epic strategic games because he knows he suffers from AP. So there is that.
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Daniel Blumentritt
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ShelbyB wrote:
We have one of those.

"It's Munchkin for pity's sake! You don't have to take five minutes to decide what to do! It won't matter, I promise!"


Although there, it's usually not AP, it's just trying to make sure you have all the modifications straight in your head when trying to figure out how much power you actually have.
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Chris Ley
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Eldard wrote:


Those kind of hints can work, but there are some APers who will not take the hint or reform.

If he is the unreformable type, there's probably little you can do except stop playing with him anymore. Seems drastic, but if other gamers keep annoying you, often the only recourse is to stop gaming with them.


He's a nice guy, and I enjoy gaming with him. I'm pretty patient with the individual turns taking time. It's when it hits the 4 hour mark and I realize we've only done 3 turns that I wish he was quicker. More for the sake of actually finishing the game.

But you're probably right, I either have to suck it up and deal with it or stop gaming with him.
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Unfortunately, there's no remedy for this problem. You can either play without him or choose a game that doesn't cause as much AP.
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Chris Wilczewski
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My best advice is to only play games with that friend where AP is not possible. Games like Galaxy Trucker, Space Alert or Resistance Avalon are great because you can't Ap them

Also you could organize with your group a turn time limit or a victory point per time spent and get a chess clock. Make it so that there is an incentive to play faster.

Alternatively you could drink alcohol while you play. Makes it more tolerable.
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Chad Steward
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If I had someone with analysis paralysis in my group I would probably ummmmmm....... uhh...... erm...
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Bryan Thunkd
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curtc wrote:
My go to strategy: "Sorry, whose turn is it?"
This works well. Or suddenly looking up and asking "Oh, is it my turn?"


Invasion81 wrote:
But you're probably right, I either have to suck it up and deal with it or stop gaming with him.
Before you do either of those options, you need to tell him that the situation is messed up. That the game is supposed to take 2 hours, not four and a half. And that he's taking too long on his turns. Tell him that you value him as a friend and enjoy spending time with him, but when he takes so long on the game, you're not having fun anymore. Maybe talk to him about why it's taking so long. If it's because he's trying to be perfect, then ask him to compromise perfection for fun. And if it's because he's overwhelmed and getting drowned in details and trying to figure out what to do, have him talk through it and offer suggestions... that might help him out of it. After that, if it's still now working, then you can stop playing with him.
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Shelby Buttimer
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If you play the same game a lot, you can look for "clog" points. When we played Twilight Imperium (Third Edition) for the first time, the tech tree really slowed us down. When it came time for us to pick out new technologies, everyone had to study the rule book with the tech tree in it and that took ages. Same with choosing new strategy cards for the next round. So for the next time we played, we printed out copies of the tech tree and the strategy cards for everyone. Then people were able to study them and be ready to go on their turn. Clog solved.

The other thing you can do is buy a sand timer and announce before the game that the sand timer will be used at this point and it'll apply to everyone. Some people really hate this, but it can help speed things along.
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Chris Wilczewski
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I love tabletop gaming, but I would rather not play than deal with severe AP players.

Games COME ALIVE when they're played at a reasonable speed.
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Brian Jurney
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Just print off a few of these.

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Chris Ley
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Thanks for the input, I'll definitely try some of the suggestions next time.

Also, I don't consider first play through slow downs as AP. That's more not knowing what to do and having to read the rules again.

AP players don't annoy me as much as ADHD players who don't pay attention to the game, and are always ask "what's going on" or never realizing it was their turn. Those are the people I refuse to play with again. But that's a different thread.
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Rob Steward
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I've don't believe I've ever mentioned it, but these sorts of threads provide a seriously strong disincentive for me to try to join any sort of game group or attend any sort of gaming convention.

My wife and I both play at a casual and leisurely pace, doing our best to play as well as we possibly can... and we find the whole "just hurry up and make a move" sentiment to be wildly unappealing. What's the point of rushing through a game? Just to chalk up a play on BGG?

For the same reason, I have little desire to play most games online or on the iPad. Stripping an enjoyable 2 hours of leisure time down to 7 minutes of urgent decisionmaking makes the whole process dramatically less satisfying in my opinion.

Since I'm curious just how much of a minority I am on this one... here's a poll:

[POLL] Are There Two Sides to the 'Analysis Paralysis' Coin?
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Chris Wilczewski
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DigitalMan wrote:
I've don't believe I've ever mentioned it, but these sorts of threads provide a seriously strong disincentive for me to try to join any sort of game group or attend any sort of gaming convention.

My wife and I both play at a casual and leisurely pace, doing our best to play as well as we possibly can... and we find the whole "just hurry up and make a move" sentiment to be wildly unappealing. What's the point of rushing through a game? Just to chalk up a play on BGG?

For the same reason, I have little desire to play most games online or on the iPad. Stripping an enjoyable 2 hours of leisure time down to 7 minutes of urgent decisionmaking makes the whole process dramatically less satisfying in my opinion.

Since I'm curious just how much of a minority I am on this one... here's a poll:

[POLL] Are There Two Sides to the 'Analysis Paralysis' Coin?


There's a big difference between leisurely playing a game and sitting there watching someone think for minutes at a time.

Imagine a game of Carcassonne. Your opponent pulls a tile out of the bag, and shows it to you. They take 30 seconds or so, laying it down in various spots on the board while you mentally force-suggest that this isn't the road they're looking for. This is a fun leisurely game, played at a reasonable speed.

Now imagine another game of Carcassonne. Your opponent pulls a tile out of the bag, and doesn't show it to you. They take 3 minutes mentally calculating which one gives them the most points possible, heming and hawing about what possible advantages each one gets. At one point they take out note pad and begin writing the potential points they open up to you. The whole time you have no idea what they're even considering, so you're literally just watching them think.

I don't think anyone is advocating against the first type of game, and I don't know of anyone who would enjoy the second type.
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Michelle
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A lot of the suggestions in this thread would actually make it take longer for me to make decisions. Asking "Whose turn is it?" is distracting, and if used the way recommended, manipulative and annoying. Using a timer or playing specific games with time pressures doesn't work, because I deal miserably with time pressure. If I feel rushed, I'll blank and won't be able to get anywhere with my thinking.

The second part of Thunkd's post has good suggestions, although I can't say if those will work for the specific person in this situation.
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Alex Berry
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Casual and leisurely pace is one thing, having your turn take the same time as all other players combined is another.
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Rob Steward
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alenen wrote:
DigitalMan wrote:
I've don't believe I've ever mentioned it, but these sorts of threads provide a seriously strong disincentive for me to try to join any sort of game group or attend any sort of gaming convention.

My wife and I both play at a casual and leisurely pace, doing our best to play as well as we possibly can... and we find the whole "just hurry up and make a move" sentiment to be wildly unappealing. What's the point of rushing through a game? Just to chalk up a play on BGG?

For the same reason, I have little desire to play most games online or on the iPad. Stripping an enjoyable 2 hours of leisure time down to 7 minutes of urgent decisionmaking makes the whole process dramatically less satisfying in my opinion.

Since I'm curious just how much of a minority I am on this one... here's a poll:

[POLL] Are There Two Sides to the 'Analysis Paralysis' Coin?

There's a big difference between leisurely playing a game and sitting there watching someone think for minutes at a time.

Imagine a game of Carcassonne. Your opponent pulls a tile out of the bag, and shows it to you. They take 30 seconds or so, laying it down in various spots on the board while you mentally force-suggest that this isn't the road they're looking for. This is a fun leisurely game, played at a reasonable speed.

Now imagine another game of Carcassonne. Your opponent pulls a tile out of the bag, and doesn't show it to you. They take 3 minutes mentally calculating which one gives them the most points possible, heming and hawing about what possible advantages each one gets. At one point they take out note pad and begin writing the potential points they open up to you. The whole time you have no idea what they're even considering, so you're literally just watching them think.

I don't think anyone is advocating against the first type of game, and I don't know of anyone who would enjoy the second type.


I'm guess you're not a fan of Chess, then?
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Shelby Buttimer
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DigitalMan wrote:
I've don't believe I've ever mentioned it, but these sorts of threads provide a seriously strong disincentive for me to try to join any sort of game group or attend any sort of gaming convention.

My wife and I both play at a casual and leisurely pace, doing our best to play as well as we possibly can... and we find the whole "just hurry up and make a move" sentiment to be wildly unappealing. What's the point of rushing through a game? Just to chalk up a play on BGG?

For the same reason, I have little desire to play most games online or on the iPad. Stripping an enjoyable 2 hours of leisure time down to 7 minutes of urgent decisionmaking makes the whole process dramatically less satisfying in my opinion.

Since I'm curious just how much of a minority I am on this one... here's a poll:

[POLL] Are There Two Sides to the 'Analysis Paralysis' Coin?


Just FYI, there's a huge difference between a leisurely pace (which most people don't mind) and analysis paralysis. AP involves taking anywhere from 5 - 15 minutes or even more for serious contemplation on each and every turn, when most people take 2 or 3 or less. It's pretty clear you've never played with anyone with AP.

The reason why people with AP can make difficult game buddies is not because people want a 2 hour game to take 7 minutes as you suggest or to "rush through a game" but because even one player with AP can easily turn a 2 hour game into a 4 or 5 hour epic game and a thirty minute "quick" game into an hour or more.

Some part of being a good game buddy is consideration for other players. Being considerate means, among other things, taking your turn in a timely manner. We all understand that on some games, another player can drastically alter your planned move such that you really do have to spend some time thinking about what to do next. But for the most part, being considerate is having at least some idea about you'd like to do on your turn and maybe a back up move. That's all most players ask. Not that you try to take your turn in record-breaking time.
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Chris Wilczewski
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DigitalMan wrote:

I'm guess you're not a fan of Chess, then?


Face to face Chess, not really. I think it's a little prone to AP. The worst part is you can't really spend that time socializing with your opponent either, because they're concentrating. Online Async Chess is better for me.

I don't like to think of my opponents as AI across the table. I'd rather they be my gaming friends first, my opponents second. Watching people think is like watching the little hourglass turn over.

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Rob Steward
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Tuttle757 wrote:
Casual and leisurely pace is one thing, having your turn take the same time as all other players combined is another.


But that of course makes it all relative. Say that on Tuesdays you play with players who are all much faster than you and on Saturdays you play with players who are all much slower than you. Do you have a problem? If so, is it that you play too slowly or too quickly?

As far as it goes, from a social standpoint it could be argued that we should try to play games in such a way that everyone's collective enjoyment is maximized. However, this would sometimes mean the slower, think-it-through player would have to sacrifice his enjoyment for the sake of the group's. (So realize what you're asking him to do... would you be willing to do the same if the situation were reversed?)
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Ian Noble
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DigitalMan wrote:
However, this would sometimes mean the slower, think-it-through player would have to sacrifice his enjoyment for the sake of the group's. (So realize what you're asking him to do... would you be willing to do the same if the situation were reversed?)


Would the situation ever be reversed? I've never seen a thread where people have said other players are going too fast. Maybe in a dexterity game or a real-time card game, but then that game is probably not for them.

For me, if 1 player is really slow, by the time it gets back to my turn, I am slower because I might have forgotten all of the things I wanted to do on my turn. So it just snowballs and extends the game out exponentially.
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Alex Berry
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DigitalMan wrote:
[q="Tuttle757"] Say that on Tuesdays you play with players who are all much faster than you and on Saturdays you play with players who are all much slower than you. Do you have a problem? If so, is it that you play too slowly or too quickly?
Nirvana Fallacy
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Rob Steward
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ShelbyB wrote:
It's pretty clear you've never played with anyone with AP.


It's hard to say for sure... but my wife and I play a 2-player game of Agricola in generally about 2.5 to 3 hours. From what I can tell, this would set off a lot of BGG's "AP Warning System".

(In fact, we play the 7/10 card drafting variant and typically spend 15-20 minutes just doing that.)

I have little doubt I'd be a frustrating opponent for some of the more AP-averse among us.
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