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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Does Common Mr. Fantastic make his Rare version useless? rss

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Erik Smith
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To me, it appears that their effects do the exact same thing, just with fancier wording on the rare, but the common costs 2 less to buy. Are there any advantages to using the 5-cost rare version versus the 3-cost common? Sure the rare can redirect damage from any source but the way I see it damage is damage, increasing defense by 2 has the same effect as redirecting 2.

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but it seems like the difference would have to do with the rules for each one... If this should be in General please tell me. And then tell me how to change it . Thanks!
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Kevin Worth
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LOL! Nice find. It sure sounds like the rare version is meant to be something else. Perhaps 'while engaged' so that it also applies while attacking. Or maybe it is meant to be an 'each time' so he can deflect your own Force Beam into the opponent as well as 2 more from the opponent directly.

 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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The common Mr F is worse because of this, when Mr F common is out of battle he loses the +2D and could die from having more damage than his defense.

The redirect allows Mr F to not take 2 damage, which increases his survivability by A LOT.

The abilities look very very similar on paper, but functionally do different things. Mr F's stats are 1/5, 2/6 and 2/7. With the +2/2 buff he is still the exact same stats after combat and can die from having taken too much damage. The rare version essentially gets +2 defense permanently upon blocking. The 2 damage redirected never happened so the rare Mr F is practically a 1/7, 2/8 and 2/9 ONLY while blocking. This is much better than the +2/2 buff.

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Brian M
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Lol. That's amusing, unless we're missing something.

I'm trying to think of an action die or global effect that would work better with the redirect, but not coming up with anything so far - I can think of situations where the redirect is worse. (Mr. Fantastic blocks a sidekick with only 1 damage to redirect, and then gets hit with some direct attack abilities to kill him off).
 
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Brandon M
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“Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game.” ― Gary Gygax
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From the complete spoiler text file

Mr. Fantastic -- Brilliant Scientist -- Limit 4 wrote:

Ability: Mr. Fantastic gets +2A and +2D while blocking.

Global: Pay [1 Mask]. Target character must attack this turn.


Mr. Fantastic - The Invincible Man -- Limit 3 wrote:

Ability: While blocking, you may redirect up to 2 damage from Mr. Fantastic
to the character he blocks.

Global: Pay [1 Mask]. Target character must attack this turn.


Umm... I think you have a point.

I am not familiar with all of the characters, but there could be some interaction with abilities that trigger when X-amount of damage is dealt to a blocker. The common would take the damage and the rare would not.
 
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Andy Stout
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Starsplice wrote:
The common Mr F is worse because of this, when Mr F common is out of battle he loses the +2D and could die from having more damage than his defense.

The redirect allows Mr F to not take 2 damage, which increases his survivability by A LOT.

The abilities look very very similar on paper, but functionally do different things. Mr F's stats are 1/5, 2/6 and 2/7. With the +2/2 buff he is still the exact same stats after combat and can die from having taken too much damage. The rare version essentially gets +2 defense permanently upon blocking. The 2 damage redirected never happened so the rare Mr F is practically a 1/7, 2/8 and 2/9 ONLY while blocking. This is much better than the +2/2 buff.


???
This came out as nonsense.

The OP has a very good question...
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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I answered the question. How is this nonsense?
 
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Brian M
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Starsplice wrote:
The common Mr F is worse because of this, when Mr F common is out of battle he loses the +2D and could die from having more damage than his defense.

The redirect allows Mr F to not take 2 damage, which increases his survivability by A LOT.

The abilities look very very similar on paper, but functionally do different things. Mr F's stats are 1/5, 2/6 and 2/7. With the +2/2 buff he is still the exact same stats after combat and can die from having taken too much damage. The rare version essentially gets +2 defense permanently upon blocking. The 2 damage redirected never happened so the rare Mr F is practically a 1/7, 2/8 and 2/9 ONLY while blocking. This is much better than the +2/2 buff.


I don't think this is correct. Online Rulebook, page 19: "Once gained, bonuses last until the end of the turn".

Even without that I wouldn't be sure that blocking bonuses clear before cleanup, but I think that makes it very clear.
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Jim Hansen
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Consider a case where the 1/5 Mr. Fantastic is defending against a 5/5. If I understand your argument correctly, are you saying that the common would die because the +2 defense wears off before the end of the round? But the rare would survive because 2 of the damage is redirected?
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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I would agree with you except for 2 things.

1) card text overrides the rules. Mr F common says "while blocking, gain +2/2" The card explicitly states while blocking. Which means when he is not blocking, he does not have the bonus. And after combat damage has been resolved, the characters are no longer engaged and Mr F would lose the +2/2 bonus.

2) The card doesn't say "after blockers have been declared, Mr Fantastic gains +2a and +2d." That wording means the bonus is gained until the turn ends because there is no stipulation on when the bonus happens. The current version of Mr F gives the bonus after he is blocking an opposing character.
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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Teamjimby wrote:
Consider a case where the 1/5 Mr. Fantastic is defending against a 5/5. If I understand your argument correctly, are you saying that the common would die because the +2 defense wears off before the end of the round? But the rare would survive because 2 of the damage is redirected?


The +2 wears off here in the cleanup step:
-Characters that blocked (or were blocked) but were not knocked out return to the field.
-Place unblocked attacking characters in the player’s used pile (even if the defending
player managed to prevent or redirect all the damage done).
-All damage to all dice is cleared.
-Any actions still in a player’s reserve pool are moved to the used pile.
-All card effects end (exception: “while active” effects may continue). The turn ends.

So yes, he would die from still having 5 damage dealt to him, and his defense is now 0 because of the total damage.

The rare version would survive because only 3 damage was dealt to the 1/5. 2 damage was redirected and never affected the rare Mr F.
 
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Jim Hansen
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If that's true, is there any benefit at all to temporarily having +2 defense? It seems like it would serve no purpose, which makes me doubt that your interpretation is the designer's intent.

Edit: plus, that sequence shows that damage is cleared before card effects end.
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Erik Smith
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Starsplice wrote:
The common Mr F is worse because of this, when Mr F common is out of battle he loses the +2D and could die from having more damage than his defense.

The redirect allows Mr F to not take 2 damage, which increases his survivability by A LOT.

The abilities look very very similar on paper, but functionally do different things. Mr F's stats are 1/5, 2/6 and 2/7. With the +2/2 buff he is still the exact same stats after combat and can die from having taken too much damage. The rare version essentially gets +2 defense permanently upon blocking. The 2 damage redirected never happened so the rare Mr F is practically a 1/7, 2/8 and 2/9 ONLY while blocking. This is much better than the +2/2 buff.



That makes sense. I think I might still run with the common once I finally get the game, just for he cost, but I understand the rare a good deal better now.

EDIT:
Teamjimby wrote:
If that's true, is there any benefit at all to temporarily having +2 defense? It seems like it would serve no purpose, which makes me doubt that your interpretation is the designer's intent.

Edit: plus, that sequence shows that damage is cleared before card effects end.


I guess you posted just before I did. Well now I'm not sure at all either way. Hmmm...
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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His card effect ends when he is no longer blocking anything.
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
1) card text overrides the rules.

There's no conflict between text and rules though. Mr. F gets +2D while blocking. Which then lasts until the end of the turn.

Also, I don't see anything about when blocking actually ends. It's not a step in the sequence at all. You remove unblocked characters in the same phase as you clear damage, but I don't see a thing about when blocking ends.

Not saying you aren't wrong - I just don't think that's clear at all. I never would have gotten the idea that blocking 'ends' at some point before damage cleanup.
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Brian M
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Teamjimby wrote:
If that's true, is there any benefit at all to temporarily having +2 defense? It seems like it would serve no purpose, which makes me doubt that your interpretation is the designer's intent.

Edit: plus, that sequence shows that damage is cleared before card effects end.

It would help against a Trampling foe.*

*Thrown car for example. Trample = MtG term for the same ability.
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Heath K
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The key here is "while blocking". This is different than say, Beast's card (Mutate #666), which is "When Beast blocks". If Mr. F's card would say "When he blocks" then he would get the bonus until the end of the turn.

There is a difference in the game with "when ____ blocks" and "while" _____ is blocking. "When" meaning the act of assigning a blocker. "While" meaning the time during which a character is blocking.
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
1) card text overrides the rules.

There's no conflict between text and rules though. Mr. F gets +2D while blocking. Which then lasts until the end of the turn.

Also, I don't see anything about when blocking actually ends. It's not a step in the sequence at all. You remove unblocked characters in the same phase as you clear damage, but I don't see a thing about when blocking ends.

Not saying you aren't wrong - I just don't think that's clear at all. I never would have gotten the idea that blocking 'ends' at some point before damage cleanup.


Well when the character who survived combat goes back to the field, are they still attacking and blocking? No. So the criteria that activates while blocking is no longer met. No more +2/2.

Your question suggests that characters who go back to the field after combat are still attacking and defending. I do not believe that is the case any longer.
 
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Malte Hue
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so whats the +2D for, then?
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Jim Hansen
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Hmm, I think I'm starting to be persuaded to Jon's side because the wording is different and I doubt they would do that by accident. Also it would make the rare pretty useless.
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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The 2d means nothing to me. The 2a is where the common shines.
 
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Brian M
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Teamjimby wrote:
Hmm, I think I'm starting to be persuaded to Jon's side because the wording is different and I doubt they would do that by accident. Also it would make the rare pretty useless.

Based on Quarriors and their other games, I would totally believe that they would do that by accident.

Also consider these two different wordings:

Pay [1 Mask]. Target character must attack this turn.
Pay [1 Bolt]. Target character must attack.

Are they supposed to mean different things?
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Darrell Goodridge
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I agree the wording IS different, and that probably means something, but if that's the case why bother adding +2D to the common? If he gets KO'd after 5 damage anyway, is there a case where the attacker benefits from knocking a character out during the attack step? I know the rare DP does, but he couldn't take a level 1 Mr F without help.
 
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John Briggs
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*sniff *sniff

I thought I smelled mention of effects ending in the Clean Up phase.
 
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Darrell Goodridge
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Starsplice wrote:
The 2d means nothing to me. The 2a is where the common shines.


That's just it though. The rare essentially has +2A as well, since he's redirecting 2 damage back at the attacker...
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