Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
35 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Black Widow, "Natural" - Even if she's KOed? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Scott Arnone
United States
Parkville
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Just wanted to clarify the wording on this. At the end of the Attack Step, if Black Widow was knocked out, is her blocker/attacker still considered engaged?

Removing KOed characters is part of the Attack step, and now the Cleanup, so I just want to make sure how this works.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russel Pepper
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Yep. Engaged happens when you declare a blocker/attacker and they're matched up. So even if they KO her, they'll spin down.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Arnone
United States
Parkville
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
That was what I figured, but I wanted to check. Nightcrawler, as an example, is written very obviously in the past-tense. Black Widow's is ambiguous, and potentially present-tense, so I hesitated.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McFarland
United States
Floresville
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Datix wrote:
Yep. Engaged happens when you declare a blocker/attacker and they're matched up. So even if they KO her, they'll spin down.


I don't know about that one. The check for Black Widow's ability happens at the end of the attack step after she would be KO'd; whereas other characters reference things that happened ('that blocked' for Nightcrawler or 'damaged by' for Hawkeye), the wording seems like Black Widow still needs to be engaged--as in, not KO'd.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heath K
United States
Sabina
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Datix wrote:
Yep. Engaged happens when you declare a blocker/attacker and they're matched up. So even if they KO her, they'll spin down.


I also believe this to be incorrect.

From the Lexicon on the back of the Rule Book:

Engaged: A character blocking or being blocked is engaged with the opposing character.


This is worded in present tense. Black Widow must continue to be engaged for the effect to trigger. Otherwise, her card would read in past or future tense (i.e. "if she engages", or "if she engaged").
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russel Pepper
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Huh...now that I re-read her card I think you might be on to something. Thanks for the clarification on the term Heath. Wow, in my opinion she's not that attractive to use in her common form unless you bring some good globals to prevent damage to her...

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Arnone
United States
Parkville
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, thinking about it, it's pretty clearly present-tense. That was my initial issue, but then I thought it might just be poorly worded (why not just include "still" before "engaged"?) but pretty sure it needs her to be still alive.

Honestly, the poor wording all throughout the set makese want to reconsider sticking with the game. I already bought a booster box though, so I guess I'll at least see what errata/faq brings.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Arnone
United States
Parkville
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Though, that begs the question of "when does Engagement end?" It could very well last until cleanup, in which case being knocked out wouldn't matter.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McFarland
United States
Floresville
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Looking through the game flow (I forget what page), dice are KO'd and moved off the board in the Attack step, but aren't 'disengaged' (moved back to the Field) until Clean-Up.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Lockwood
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We've been playing that those effects will still happen.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heath K
United States
Sabina
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Eyefink wrote:
Looking through the game flow (I forget what page), dice are KO'd and moved off the board in the Attack step, but aren't 'disengaged' (moved back to the Field) until Clean-Up.


Just to clarify this. If a character is KO'd, it is no longer engaged. The KO'd character is no longer blocking or being blocked, according to the game's definition of "engaged". In order for a character to remain engaged with another until Cleanup, both characters can't be KO'd.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Arnone
United States
Parkville
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Fat Jesus wrote:
Eyefink wrote:
Looking through the game flow (I forget what page), dice are KO'd and moved off the board in the Attack step, but aren't 'disengaged' (moved back to the Field) until Clean-Up.


Just to clarify this. If a character is KO'd, it is no longer engaged. The KO'd character is no longer blocking or being blocked, according to the game's definition of "engaged". In order for a character to remain engaged with another until Cleanup, both characters can't be KO'd.


The rulebook doesn't actually specify when the state of blocking ends though. The character that didn't get KOed is still considered blocked, after all, as his damage doesn't pass through the now KOed die.

It's just a weird situation, because otherwise the costing seems weird. Hawkeye costs 3 and can for sure take a single die down up to 2 levels. Black Widow costs 2, with low stats, and likely does nothing? Is 1 cost really worth that much?

The only advantage is that Widow doesn't have to deal damage, whereas Hawkeye does. But that's balanced by his version being stronger and he has higher stats.

Just from a balance perspective, I think it has to work for Widpw whether she is KOed or not.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tina McDuffie
United States
Goose Creek
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
Visit TheGlassMeeple.com for game reviews and run-throughs by me.
badge
She who laughs... lasts!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Eyefink wrote:
Datix wrote:
Yep. Engaged happens when you declare a blocker/attacker and they're matched up. So even if they KO her, they'll spin down.


I don't know about that one. The check for Black Widow's ability happens at the end of the attack step after she would be KO'd; whereas other characters reference things that happened ('that blocked' for Nightcrawler or 'damaged by' for Hawkeye), the wording seems like Black Widow still needs to be engaged--as in, not KO'd.


I agree with Datix. Black Widow's ability applies whether she was KO'd or not. Think about it: if you get in a fight with someone, you and your opponent are both engaged in a fight. After the fight, you both still engaged in the fight, regardless of whether either or both of you got knocked out. Seems to me the idea is that even if she loses the fight, Black Widow at least weakened her opponent.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Goodridge
United States
Windsor Locks
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Currently at 1:2 ratio, getting better every week
badge
I don't want it, I don't need it, but I can't stop myself. - Stabbing Westward
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I also agree that it has to work even if she is knocked out. Compare her with Angel: Avenging Angel. He specifically says "if he is blocked but not knocked out". Black Widow doesn't say that. Just think about the usefulness of that card if she had to survive. She's at BEST a 3/3. What other die would she survive against that would need to be spun down a level? Maybe a Beast or Mr Fantastic? Big whoop. If all she could spin down were the 1A and 2A's of the world, she'd be possibly the most narrow use card in the game and as useless as a screen door on a submarine.
3 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brook Gentlestream
United States
Long Beach
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cardboardjunkie wrote:
as useless as a screen door on a submarine.


That's going to by new expression for the rest of this week.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Goodridge
United States
Windsor Locks
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Currently at 1:2 ratio, getting better every week
badge
I don't want it, I don't need it, but I can't stop myself. - Stabbing Westward
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lol. You've never heard that one before? Another good one is as useless as an ejector seat in a helicopter...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McFarland
United States
Floresville
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Comparing the wording of one card to another is iffy at best. They don't quite have set terminology yet, and different people obviously wrote the cards. It's an old boardgame trope that cards may be worded differently but still mean the same thing.

To elaborate, a character is engaged if they are "blocking or being blocked." Characters that are KO'd are moved to the Prep area before the end of the Attack step (which is also after the effects from being KO'd or damaged happen). A character may have been blocked but they can't be engaged with someone who isn't there.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Goodridge
United States
Windsor Locks
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Currently at 1:2 ratio, getting better every week
badge
I don't want it, I don't need it, but I can't stop myself. - Stabbing Westward
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Which just proves my point that everyone should just burn their Naturals. They have such limited scope of effectiveness, that they shouldn't even have been printed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew McFarland
United States
Floresville
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hahaha, that's the only Black Widow I've ever been able to pull.

I could always be wrong, though. I foresee a revision Quarriors-style with an advanced turn breakdown sooner rather than later. Hopefully.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Byrd
United States
Ocean Grove
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My two cents:

The answer to the OP's question is that BW' s effect will not happen if she is KO'd by an effect of the character that she is engaged with or some other effect.

For example, if you declared a one-health BW to block and your opponent used Force Beam to take her out after blockers were declared. She would be KO'd immediately and her effect wouldn't happen.

However, if she is assigned to block someone who will kill her, her effect still happens before she dies. I say this because the card text reads "(this happens before damage clears)". The point of this is that if spinning the character down results in health less than or equal to BW's attack, that character will be knocked out.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Suzy Vitale
United States
Silver Spring
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
When empty, please refill with tea.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's how I read it... Because her ability happens at the END of the attack step, BW doesn't get to spin down her blocker before she is attacked. But BEFORE DAMAGE CLEARS, she gets to use her ability. BW would be KO'ed during the damage clearing step, so since her ability happens before that, you get to spin down the blocker(s) before she leaves the field.

To me, the key phrases on the card are "at the end of attack step" and "this happens before damage clears". The recap section on the back cover of the Rulebook helps to sort this out as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heath K
United States
Sabina
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
suzyvitale wrote:
Here's how I read it... Because her ability happens at the END of the attack step, BW doesn't get to spin down her blocker before she is attacked. But BEFORE DAMAGE CLEARS, she gets to use her ability. BW would be KO'ed during the damage clearing step, so since her ability happens before that, you get to spin down the blocker(s) before she leaves the field.

To me, the key phrases on the card are "at the end of attack step" and "this happens before damage clears". The recap section on the back cover of the Rulebook helps to sort this out as well.


KOs happen before the end of the attack step (page 8). Damage clears during the Cleanup phase (page 9).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Suzy Vitale
United States
Silver Spring
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
When empty, please refill with tea.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fat Jesus wrote:
suzyvitale wrote:
Here's how I read it... Because her ability happens at the END of the attack step, BW doesn't get to spin down her blocker before she is attacked. But BEFORE DAMAGE CLEARS, she gets to use her ability. BW would be KO'ed during the damage clearing step, so since her ability happens before that, you get to spin down the blocker(s) before she leaves the field.

To me, the key phrases on the card are "at the end of attack step" and "this happens before damage clears". The recap section on the back cover of the Rulebook helps to sort this out as well.


KOs happen before the end of the attack step (page 8). Damage clears during the Cleanup phase (page 9).


Argh, OK I see that now. Though I do wonder/hope if either the card or Rulebook is poorly worded? (Now I'm extra glad I bought the rare BW single from CSI!)

I still don't understand why they would've taken the extra step to write out "this happens before damage clears" if this wasn't somehow significant. Otherwise it seems really redundant/unnecessary. If you read what happens between the end of the attack phase and damage being cleared (pg 9 again), there are only two things:

1. Characters that are blocked (or were blocked) but were not knocked out return the field.

2. Place unblocked attacking characters in the players used pile (even if the defending player managed to prevent or redirect all the damage done).

I don't get how BW's effect would change anything in this particular phase, and her ability now seems really lame. Boo hoo.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Goodridge
United States
Windsor Locks
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Currently at 1:2 ratio, getting better every week
badge
I don't want it, I don't need it, but I can't stop myself. - Stabbing Westward
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
They put that in there in case the decreased D knocks them out. Let's say BW is a 3/3 and some other character is 2/5, BW doesn't get knocked out, but if the opponent spins down and is suddenly a 1/3, then he does. I don't know of any specific dice that have faces like that, so she's basically worthless as written.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff W
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I'm in the boat with the people that think she has to be not KO'd for her effect to work. Like is said above, you are KO'd and moved before the Cleanup Step.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.