Recommend
96 
 Thumb up
 Hide
256 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [11] | 

Android: Netrunner» Forums » General

Subject: My rant about "The State of the Game" (it's not what you think) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Scott Kincaid
United States
Toms River
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
For those of you that don't know me , I've been playing Netrunner since day 1 of it's release. I got hooked on the game immediately , and thought "wow.. this is fantastically designed". At that point , I was only playing with one other person at the time (who bought his core set almost immediately afterwards) and we played for about 10 hours each time we got together (around twice a week).

We didn't 'get' the game as deeply as we do now. I was playing shaper and jinteki (not the default ones) , and he was playing Criminal and HB. And then we started experimenting with every other faction. During this , we got more people playing the game. And then more... and more. We wound up with a decent sized playgroup. All with different ideas and concepts. We didn't immediately all play "the best" deck , because we all had different ideas of what "the best" was. I valued econ and surprise factors. Others valued denial and overt threats. But we all played something we liked.

Then I found out about tournaments being run. Oh damn ! I came from a competitive magic background (among other competitive interests like fighting games or chess). It was only natural for me to be hyped about that. Everyone else in my group was as well. So I entered my first tournament (running a CT Vamp list and Jinteki PE right around cyber exodus).

I won the tournament. I was undefeated. But I learned a lot as well. Other deck styles , and how potent certain cards really were. But I didn't see a glaring problem with the game. Yeah , maybe that corp was too weak , but otherwise it was fine. I felt account siphon was a strong card , so was astro and san san. But these weren't gamebreaking cards. Just cards you had to respect.

I went on to top 4 90% of the tournaments that I entered (mostly winning) up until the plugged-in-tour. I played shaper exclusively. On the corp side , I dabbled in Weyland , but mostly played Jinteki. Those were two factions that were considered "weak" by "better and more competitive" players. I didn't find them weak , but I did feel that players haven't figured them out. I felt that too many players fell into uniform thinking. People wanted NBN and Jinteki to play like Weyland and HB. But they weren't trying to play the factions how they were meant to be played. Damon Stone mentioned this in a Team Covenant interview as well.

I think when that interview hit , people started to 'get' those factions a little more. Greg Hollis also contributed to this , with his work compression theory behind Jinteki. He was (is) a player that understood the faction that he was playing. He "got" it.

Fast forward to present day. Players are playing NBN much more so than then. Anarch is getting TONS more play than then. Shaper is considered a great faction , with tons of tools and options. The way people view those factions have greatly changed. The way that people view the game has changed as well.... but not that much.

We're coming to the SAME problem again. People see winning deck lists , replicate them , and play them in tournament. Because the list is strong , it wins. But because people THINK it's 'the best' list , it gets played much more than other lists. People are not trying to blaze a new path , they're trying to go down the path of least resistance and the one that is already clear. It's the best because it wins , so why play something else because it's clearly not as good as [insert criminal or nbn deck here].

Are we sure that it's the best ? In my tournament career , I've won many tournaments. Did I get my wins playing 'the best decks in the game at the time' ? No. Granted I won a store championship with Andy and NBN1 (and since have gone back to Jinteki as my corp). But even after winning a store championship , my Andy list got panned somewhat on stimhack and even a bit here on BGG (Boonton NJ Store Championship winner). Because it ran an aurora and a peacock in it. I also ran garrote over ninja. I wanted to have influence for 1 atman (btw , was the mvp of my deck). Had to save influence. But people are all like 'pfft... no mimic , actually had aurora in it and a peacock. That deck isn't as good as [insert andy list here]".

That isn't the point. The point is I played the best that day with the decks I decided to bring to the table. I knew my tools , and used them the most efficiently. It wasn't just that my deck was 'better than theirs' , it was that I played the best with my deck. I think people are losing sight of that fact.

But onto other nitpicks and flat out complaints about people's general outlook on the game.

Account Siphon. "It should be reprinted , or banned , or restricted". No. This card should be none of those things. This card is exactly what the game needs. A very high powered card that has a massive upside , with risk attached to it (and for those of you that say this card has no risk , Closed Accounts has something to say to you). The existence of this card molds how corps play the game against criminal (or runners in general). If you got Siphoned 4 times in a game , you DESERVED it. Because you didn't respond to the threat. You didn't respect it. You tried to play too fast and didn't properly evaluate your board state and the runner's options.

"Well if I play to shut off siphon , then the runner can just sit back and do whatever because I'm not pressuring the runner to do anything". Wrong. You are pressuring the runner to do something. You're pressuring them to devise another line of play that's effective. Plus it doesn't take THAT much in terms of resources and time to make siphon a non-factor in a game. Make the run into HQ cost 8 credits. Boom. Done.

NBN FA (now with Fast Track). "Man , Fast Track made astrochaining better , and it was already good. They need to print a counter to this". They did. It's called The Source , and Chakana (and to a lesser extent Legwork). These cards SHUT THIS OFF. And to top it off , one of these cards makes the corp spend MORE money and MORE time to do things they already want/need to do to win the game 100% of the time that it's on the board. But sadly , this card isn't in "good" decks , so it isn't a "good" card (or even playable by some people's standards because of the influence cost). Oh , and because they can't float the tags from the end-all be-all card that is Siphon (which would cost them 2c and a click to do so , so they can't FA an agenda out that turn anyways giving you a chance to make a play). There are answers out there. But because they aren't in 'good' decks , they aren't considered.

FA in general. "No one scores agendas out of remotes anymore. The game is flawed from it's original design." I couldn't consider this more false. Has anyone even watched other tournaments ? I personally score agendas out of remotes all the time (even in NBN). In fact , I'm willing to say that most of the winning tournament lists score agendas out of remotes. Especially Red Coats ,the new fad in HB which is a FANTASTIC deck and is the epitome of netrunner. Weyland players also don't FA anything , and they're still a rather successful corp in top-end play. Fast Advance is a deck strategy , and it's a good one. But it is certainly NOT the only way to win as corp in netrunner.


I think that just because a couple of notable players said that the game went in a direction that they don't personally like , others are just kind of following suit in this. If someone doesn't like the game right now , that's perfectly fine. But it is NOT gospel. I going on record to say that the game is in a FANTASTIC state right now. There are so many options in deckbuilding and playstyle. All of them incredibly valid and competitive ways to play the game. But I do think that people are too complacent in their deckbuilding and play , that there is no PROGRESSION. So people get caught up on these decks/playstyles , consider them overpowered and chalk up everything else as futile. Even when new cards come out , generally people think about how to fit them in their currently existing lists , rather than what new decks these cards enable (granted , some cards are purely designed to go into currently existing archetypes). This is what's not good for the game. It's not Account Siphon. It's not Fast Track. It's lack of progression.

I could go on for hours about this. But I'll end my rant here. I'm fully prepared to be told that "I'm wrong" , or to have someone supply anecdotal evidence showing how my examples are bad. But , I'm completely open to have a civil discussion about this. In fact , I'm looking forward to something like that. It's a step in the right direction if we do.

EDIT : Thanks for all the thumbs and tips guys ! I didn't expect that at all. I'd also like to thank everyone for contributing to this discussion. This is exactly what we needed !
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lynk Fox
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
*Claps*

Thank you. I think the same as you. I am afraid everyone will post disagreeing with you, so I am putting mine in quick now - Screw the Meta.

I'm playing a Data Dealer and the other forfeit an agenda in a runner deck and winning. I'm playing less then 10 ice in a HB deck, and winning. I'm playing Ian Sterling with no ASiph and Data Dealer. And winning. Hell, for giggles I have a deck with only 49 different cards in it. If you're counting, thats a Corp deck with no more than 1 copy of each card. And, in three games it hasnt won yet... but its been One turn from winning each time when all it was was a lucky access. Being able to score 6 agenda points when you have NO multiple copies... heh. Wow.

True, I'm not playing against the best of the best. Im not always playing against Andy Sucker or NBN Fast. Because we here like to play the game, and we love to play around with the cards - even our best players here, the ones that have won multiple store tournaments, who have multiple playmats, who have the wins to back up the words they speak - love playing anything they can get their hands on, and come up with some of the weirdest decks. Try Custom Biotics with 22 Influence running Mandatory Upgrades, Midseasons and Psycho to score that in one turn. Then score 3/2s out of hand. Try No breaker decks, using the multitde of tricks and intuition to get in when you need it, but nothing more.


Anyway. I ramble.

People groan and moan, but thats because they refuse to break the meta. Break the meta. If you are as good as you say you are, then you can make a deck thats new and different and still win. Surprise is the best weapon in this game (And i say you generally)
28 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hany Hebisha
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I totally agree with you. I think netrunner is in a very healthy state at the moment, and I don't see the need to ban or restrict any card ATM.

Looking forward to see how the currents may change the game and maybe affect FA decks.

Cheers
Hany
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Blake Burkhead
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mb
Agreed. Where I'm at, our most recent game night I brought a Jinteki styled NBN tax and kit, my friend brought a mostly traditional Rush/FA which I dearly decked with only 1 imp, and a blackmail deck that runs The source. Another friend brought the HB influence id, and a big rig chaos theory.

We're experimenting with wizard, I made my own Iceless Jinteki that's flat out obnoxious, and countless other oddball decks. For being such a small local group we've all played against, and played more kinds of decks than most.

The best I can say is I'm still having fun.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Swaner
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
I don't think that the game is in a bad state, and I'll be playing just as much in the foreseeable future as I do now, but I think there are valid complaints about what is going on with meta and all that.

Anarch's current trouble with needing to import a lot if cards to cover faction weaknesses, for instance, and them getting minimal support to start covering those until Lunar is/was bogus. There's exactly zero reason that Duggar's couldn't have been in Spin, and finally having good in-faction draw is going to make vast swaths of Anarch stuff viable.

Fast Track didn't need to be neutral either. Seriously. NBN did NOT need something to make Astro even better. How about instead it was made into Jinteki card with 1-2 influence? That would have nerfed FA decks to some degree because influence is super tight in them, but still allowed us to squeeze them into newer deck strategies.

That said... Criminal is not better than Shaper but equal, Account Siphon is fine but powerful, Jackson is necessary to smooth Corp play, Nisei is also fine but powerful, and that AD combo is pure jank (as in bad). Also, Weyland Big Ice ain't dead (REPRESENT).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I wonder if part of the problem with this is that the cards come out in chunks that are too small, too often. I don't have a problem with the number of cards that come out, but I do think it should perhaps be 3x as many cards with 3x as long between releases, and perhaps there would be more deckbuilding exploration without a constant sense of exhaustion with having to keep up with changes to existing archetypes too. Not only that, but we routinely are coming up with deck ideas in this community that struggle for months before packs inevitably come out which validate the idea and round out the deck.


Related personal anecdote: I just had an Oracle migration blow up in my face two weeks ago (as those are wont to do; I could rant for HOURS on it. I'd like to feed Larry to Komainu someday.). Since I've gotten to play maybe 3 games during this time when I am caught in a mad scramble to restore my project schedule to some semblance its previous state, and since I'm exhausted from working 30 extra hours in the last 10 days, and since we just had one of the two biggest card infusions since Core come out four f*cking days before our Regional tournament, I expect now to show up for the participation prize and get gutterstomped.

There's no reason this ever has to happen if they released cards every 3 months instead of every month; they could easily plan tournaments around release times.


In any case, I wonder how much of the deckbuilding stagnation isn't due to group-think, but with an inability to do any significant testing before another pack comes out again, particularly if you're not playing online. Don't get me wrong, I've loved the constant infusion of cards up until about 4 days ago due to the timing of the big-box relative to our Regional tourney, and I think the same volume of cards on a different release schedule would still be just fine, but I do think that some part of this problem is logistical and not just stubbornness.
14 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Freeman
United States
Arcata
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I also agree at least corp side. I feel like corp side, there is a ton of new options and builds and many of them are viable.

Lately I have been getting a serious vibe of doom and gloom from sources I have previously looked to for energy and even a bit of inspiration in our community. Perhaps this is due to the game simply going in a direction they do not like, but it may also just be with them loosing touch with the game itself.

For instance, I have played against Caprice and I don't think she is half as annoying as many people make her out to be. She is a strong card, but if anything she helps make Netrunner, Netrunner! You HAVE to run somewhere and do something or the corp has a secure server.

I also think that many people have not really fully explored the card pool to find an answer to fast advance. If anything, the source got a buff after fall guy.

That and we will have Lunar Cycle kicking off as early as next month. I am sure that cycle will turn a few things on regarding how everyone is "supposed" to play the game.

Runner side I feel kind of stunted only in one faction. Shapers and Criminals have a few really neat deck archetypes and every runner id has won a tournament of some kind. I really think that the reason Andysucker and Kate are still near the top is because many people think of them as the best and thus run them.

I really am hoping that a few more people take a chance and that we see some new and interesting runner plays this regionals season.

Edit - Also Llu, I fully expect to drive eight hours to get clobbered this year at your regionals. If I can even manage to place above the middle I am going to count that as a win. Maybe we will be competing for the scorched earth prize?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erin OConnor
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
What is your favorite color?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wonder how people are going to freak out when Upstalk hits. They are adding in a new mechanism to the game that will even further shift the meta for the game.

Edit:

For the record I am playing some sort of 'Kitbrush' shaper deck and love the crap out of it. First iteration of it was not so great. Went back through and re-tooled my cards (added in a few forged activation orders) and it plays quite well now.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Nordeng
United States
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We need these rants every now and then, thanks for posting. None the less, the 80/20 rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle will always exist. 20% shape the game while 80% ride the wave the 20% made. It will probably always be this way. While I hope your post may inspire some of those future 20%ers to be to get out there and truly explore the game, the vast majority will be perfectly happy netdecking their future creations.

What I think is maybe the most important thing to consider is the way information is provided from the 20% to the 80%. Being careful not to make absolute claims about cards, decks, ect. This is risky business when new player is looking for anything to help them get a grip on the game. I can't blame the noob, I was that person desperate and thirsty for anything that would help give me some kind of reference point for this vast and somewhat intimidating game. I blame the expert for planting seeds that establish this mindset of "absolute". Because if there is one thing I have learned about this game, there is no "always" or absolute anything.

You could not be more right about more doors being open now than ever before for decks on both sides. Kudos to FFG, Lukas, Damon and the playtest team. It hasn't been perfect, but its only getting better, and that's pretty exciting.


15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was just reading a review of the new set that was prefaced with complaints about cards, mentioning the need to ban this and that--in this list was Accelerated Diagnostics and Parasite as cards of note (which utterly blew my mind). It is refreshing to read your post, OP. I agree wholeheartedly: mass consensus is an issue with this game for sure.

I lost exactly 2 games to Katman when that was the thing (I found this match to be very easy to navigate). I won an 80+ person Plugged In with Exile (while people made fun of me for it here when I shared it prior) when everyone else was on Andy's girl balls.

My analogy about this game is as follows: it's like drivers. Everyone thinks they're a good driver then the truth is like 10% of people are in fact above average when behind the wheel.

I myself used to be a little more active here regarding sharing decks and commenting, but, as I have moved more into the design aspect of gaming--I had a game come out in Nov. and just had another fund on KS--I have consciously tried to disengage from the conflict that comes with talking shop in a competitive game (please see my last 14+ page thread: Jinteki Dead You). I consider myself a good player with some insights, but, alas, it seems to either end up an act of futility and/or verbal fisticuffs. I too have thrown a digital punch or four, and for this, I just avoid it like the plague--not a good image as a designer to be word moshing in a public forum.

What does this have to do with your post? Well, I applaud you for putting this out there. I think you have made some very solid points that very few people can or will agree with because they are either waiting to be told what is good/bad/otherwise OR they simply do not understand the game well enough to see merit in your 'unorthodox' opinions. I was gagging when people were 'quitting the game' because of Caprice. I haven't been reading much--the aforementioned thread was shared by a friend who started with 'read this nonsense.' I mean, sure, I assume the meta will shift toward Siphon due to Planned Assault, but, as you touched upon, this isn't the real issue. I am hoping for some more tag punishment to level the playing field a little I am def enjoying the new digs and can't wait to sample more of the Lunar Cycle wares.

*Lifts glass!

Thanks for posting this.

22 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Kincaid
United States
Toms River
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Nords3x4 wrote:
We need these rants every now and then, thanks for posting. None the less, the 80/20 rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle will always exist. 20% shape the game while 80% ride the wave the 20% made. It will probably always be this way. While I hope your post may inspire some of those future 20%ers to be to get out there and truly explore the game, the vast majority will be perfectly happy netdecking their future creations.

What I think is maybe the most important thing to consider is the way information is provided from the 20% to the 80%. Being careful not to make absolute claims about cards, decks, ect. This is risky business when new player is looking for anything to help them get a grip on the game. I can't blame the noob, I was that person desperate and thirsty for anything that would help give me some kind of reference point for this vast and somewhat intimidating game. I blame the expert for planting seeds that establish this mindset of "absolute". Because if there is one thing I have learned about this game, there is no "always" or absolute anything.




You have made an impact to HB players in a great way. You've paved the way for HB players to think about their decks without FA , while still being competitve and fun. For this I thank you sincerely.

I also agree completely with what you just said. I feel like the problem with people not experimenting came in the meta's infancy. People dealt with absolutes so early , and it just became the way people think now. Alexfrog is a great example here. He thinks of cards mostly in absolutes (or at least is very blunt about what he thinks of a card). Calling something "The Deck" essentially insinuates "This deck is the best deck in the game , and if you play anything else , then you're doing it wrong". That's poisonous for the growth of a game.

Experimentation and open mindedness is key. Especially in a game like this. The onus does come down on the experts though. To not tell people "their ideas are bad and they should stop trying" , and instead work with them openly as to why they don't think something is optimal but deserves a try. As long as there is legitimate effort and thought put into their ideas , there should be legitimate effort put into the feedback.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tony Ynot
msg tools
It's a matter of numbers. There will almost always be room for creative decks in almost any game, unless the game is so unbalanced that the best decks are that much better than anything else. This is partly because of the advantage of surprise (people don't know how to play against a deck they've never seen before) but also because of the nature of a balanced metagame (no one throw in scissors-paper-rock is better than any other).

However the question is how much room is there for creative decks? Is it correct to play a creative deck 20% of the time? What if it was only 5% of the time? Even if it was only correct for 5% of people to be playing creative decks because of the way that the popular decks worked, human nature would kick in - people would want to go down the road less travelled (or just want to play a deck they find different and fun) and so more than the ideal number would play those decks. That would just make whichever popular deck was strong against them, do even better.

I'm not saying this is currently the case in netrunner. It's just that it can be the case in some games at some times.

For an example of how this metagame works, consider a variant of scissors-paper-rock where winning with scissors or paper is worth one point but winning with rock is only worth half a point. Because scissors is so much tougher to break, the ideal ratio of throws is now 40% scissors, 40% rock and only 20% paper.

Say if we now changed it so winning with rock is only worth one tenth of a point, then it would only be correct to throw paper 5% of the time (with the other 95% split equally among rock and scissors). If your opponent noticed you throwing it more often than that, they could easily modify their strategy to smash you.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Kincaid
United States
Toms River
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Action Phase wrote:
I was just reading a review of the new set that was prefaced with complaints about cards, mentioning the need to ban this and that--in this list was Accelerated Diagnostics and Parasite as cards of note (which utterly blew my mind). It is refreshing to read your post, OP. I agree wholeheartedly: mass consensus is an issue with this game for sure.

I lost exactly 2 games to Katman when that was the thing (I found this match to be very easy to navigate). I won an 80+ person Plugged In with Exile (while people made fun of me for it here when I shared it prior) when everyone else was on Andy's girl balls.

My analogy about this game is as follows: it's like drivers. Everyone thinks they're a good driver then the truth is like 10% of people are in fact above average when behind the wheel.

I myself used to be a little more active here regarding sharing decks and commenting, but, as I have moved more into the design aspect of gaming--I had a game come out in Nov. and just had another fund on KS--I have consciously tried to disengage from the conflict that comes with talking shop in a competitive game (please see my last 14+ page thread: Jinteki Dead You). I consider myself a good player with some insights, but, alas, it seems to either end up an act of futility and/or verbal fisticuffs. I too have thrown a digital punch or four, and for this, I just avoid it like the plague--not a good image as a designer to be word moshing in a public forum.

What does this have to do with your post? Well, I applaud you for putting this out there. I think you have made some very solid points that very few people can or will agree with because they are either waiting to be told what is good/bad/otherwise OR they simply do not understand the game well enough to see merit in your 'unorthodox' opinions. I was gagging when people were 'quitting the game' because of Caprice. I haven't been reading much--the aforementioned thread was shared by a friend who started with 'read this nonsense.' I mean, sure, I assume the meta will shift toward Siphon due to Planned Assault, but, as you touched upon, this isn't the real issue. I am hoping for some more tag punishment to level the playing field a little I am def enjoying the new digs and can't wait to sample more of the Lunar Cycle wares.

*Lifts glass!

Thanks for posting this.



First off , I'd like to mention that I own Infamy and really enjoy the game. I think there are some great ideas in the game , and have a lot of fun with it. Now enough brownnosing.

You paved the way for exile to be a legitimate deck. You made your own trail. You put a lot of thought and effort into your designs. Your Jinteki list and your Reina list are also fantastic as well. I've played all three of those lists extensively , learning the nuances and tactics in the deck.

AND THEN I made my own lists with those concepts. Incorporating my own style , and how I like to play with the tactics and concepts that your decks taught me. I'd also like to thank you for those as well.

I'd also like to inquire : which thread did your friend point out to you as 'nonsense' ? This one or the Stimhack one that I alluded to ?


For the record , I do think that every faction needs a weakness. If a faction doesn't have a weakness , then it completely debunks the influence system. You'd have no need to outsource anything. Anarch being weak in card draw is a perfect example of this. They have to have the need to outsource SOMETHING. Therefore... there isn't (and shouldn't ever be) a perfect deck.

Also , Duggar's should be in Lunar , because FF is going with a new theme of 'spend your whole turn to do something awesome'. Eliza's Toybox is also an example of this.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks! I have been an occasional jackwagon with regard to my threads, but my main objective with sharing is to do just that: share. Exile started as a nod to my love for reanimator in Magic, but then turned into something substantial--I still play this deck all the time and do very well with it. I love this game and just want others to see how awesome it truly is, but, alas, I feel a good many of the Netrunner 'authorities' tout rather suspect opinions and appraisals. There are a handful of individuals, who are seemingly revered, that utterly baffle me. But, at the end of the day, it's not worth crossing swords.

I spend an inordinate amount of time gaming--both playing and working on my own games. I play a lot of Netrunner. Before this, I was obsessed with singleton formats in Magic, and I think that really gave me an appreciable insight into deck-building. I have tried to impart what I know, but, unfortunately, trying to share often feels like swimming against the current. I am not saying I by any means am 'the authority,' but I genuinely have always had a very hard time finding substantial content regarding this game. This of course extends to new and less experienced players who fall prey to pandering the more vocal personalities for the game, despite their self-purported credentials. In short, there is not a consistent resource for new players, in my opinion. There are def a handful of players who I respect, but, alas, the majority of these individuals are not that vocal--surely because trying to share ideas about this game often feels like being hit in the face with a burning golf club.

Regarding which article in particular, I would rather not say outright. I can only say this: Accelerated Diagnostics would not make any list of mine in terms of powerful cards--I have seen soooooo many people try that janky combo to consistent failure. I made a list once of the factors you need to pull this off on average (not in a vacuum) and I counted top end of 14 variables to pull it off, with a minimum of 7 (as far as I remember). I love Parasite, and think it is a great card, but banworthy?!?!?! Maybe I am missing something, or my meta is just weird, but these stood out to me in bold print as being off.

I had 5 people over to my place tonight, and I saw a lot of decks being played: a pretty solid Silhouette/Blackguard build that wasn't all the way there, but damn close, a cool Psi deck that was causing much stress for the runners, an Overmind deck that surprised me (though it was still a little too off the beaten path), and THE most annoying horizontal Jinteki build I have ever seen. These were just the new digs. I have been killing people (literally) with my new HB Punitive push deck for 2 solid months now, which I built after a friend said he wanted to play HB brain damage and was having trouble.

I dunno. I think there are tons of viable decks now. Sure, some are better than others, but play skill, understanding timing windows, and putting your opponent to tough decisions go such a long way in this game. That is something I love about Netrunner that many other card games lack: liberal variable control. Anyway, I am ranting myself now

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Swaner
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Listen, Vash, I agree with you. I am not saying that Anarch needs to do everything in-faction without having to spend influence. My point is that they don't have as much room as the other factions to toy with their influence because of their lack of a lot of things, draw being one of them, and therefore aren't as competitive because of it. They haven't had much help with this lack of certain things over the course of the last cycle, though they have got new toys, and complaining about that is something I think is valid. Like I said before: I love the current state of the game but admit there ARE valid criticisms.

Duggars could have still come out sooner. Just because something is the focus of a cycle doesn't mean those mechanics can't be used elsewhere. Especially if it is better for the overall health of the game, which I think giving Anarch some good draw or tutor would have been. Fortunately, First Contact is about a month away now, and it kind of fills both rolls while still maintaining a very Anarach feel.


Action Phase, I also agree with the last bit of your post there. The meta is wide open for plenty of valid, strong decks that aren't being played. I think the desire to play the strongest deck is natural, though, and people tend to equate special event wins to strength. Since you see a lot of Andy and NBN competitively, I think people get a warped sense of what is viable and just build base on event results.



3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree Anarchs need a boost. They seem to have a high density of edge case cards--higher than the other factions, I would say. Maybe I am wrong, but Duggar's doesn't immediately strike me as being outside the edge case trend. I do think, however, Anarchs have some of THE best programs in this game. Sadly, many Anarch decks I have seen do not actualize this. Here's to hoping for some more Anarch goodies in the future!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Kincaid
United States
Toms River
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
As an example , let me mention that I'm trying out a Silhouette deck that runs central only breakers , knight , grappling hook , notoriety and quest completed. Quest completed has been awesome for me. If they install something in a remote , I get into hq (via fient or normal means) , expose what they just put in. If it's an agenda , I go and complete the quest. If it's not , then I just hang back and money up.

I use knights and inside job to get into 2 deep remotes , quest completed if it's 3 deep. I also run desperado and security test to recoup the money. Security test is fantastic. There are so many nuances to that card. If they ever put out an econ asset unprotected , I get an easy mark every turn (if I have desperado that is). It provokes the corp into icing everything to deny me money , spreading them thinner on ice.

I think that list is almost there.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Kincaid
United States
Toms River
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Orbital Tangent wrote:
Listen, Vash, I agree with you. I am not saying that Anarch needs to do everything in-faction without having to spend influence. My point is that they don't have as much room as the other factions to toy with their influence because of their lack of a lot of things, draw being one of them, and therefore aren't as competitive because of it. They haven't had much help with this lack of certain things over the course of the last cycle, though they have got new toys, and complaining about that is something I think is valid. Like I said before: I love the current state of the game but admit there ARE valid criticisms.

Duggars could have still come out sooner. Just because something is the focus of a cycle doesn't mean those mechanics can't be used elsewhere. Especially if it is better for the overall health of the game, which I think giving Anarch some good draw or tutor would have been. Fortunately, First Contact is about a month away now, and it kind of fills both rolls while still maintaining a very Anarach feel.


Action Phase, I also agree with the last bit of your post there. The meta is wide open for plenty of valid, strong decks that aren't being played. I think the desire to play the strongest deck is natural, though, and people tend to equate special event wins to strength. Since you see a lot of Andy and NBN competitively, I think people get a warped sense of what is viable and just build base on event results.





Sorry.. I didn't mean to come off as countering your post sir. I was just trying to clarify. I can come off as rather vague sometimes because my writing skills aren't that great. I tend to rant.

But I agree that anarch could use a little help. Anarch is literally the Jinteki of runners though. They have so many cards that you want to use , it's hard to squeeze them into one deck. Something that lets them condense their list would be nice. Or play above 45 cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anthony Giovannetti
United States
Woodinville / Bothell Area
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
To start, I want to preface by saying that ultimately I agree that Netrunner is still completely fine, has a nice diverse meta, and is a great game. Alex and I don't always agree on everything, and in this case I think he is exaggerating some very true and real grievances that do exist, but that deserved to be aired and discussed.

So with that said I just want to talk about this in particular.

Vash2002 wrote:

We're coming to the SAME problem again. People see winning deck lists , replicate them , and play them in tournament. Because the list is strong , it wins. But because people THINK it's 'the best' list , it gets played much more than other lists. People are not trying to blaze a new path , they're trying to go down the path of least resistance and the one that is already clear.


I think that this is a complete misconception that I see repeated a lot in various places.

In general, the reason why some of the stronger players bitch a little more vocally than others is the exact opposite of this actually. It is because the more active competitive players play so many games and try so many things that they complain about stuff like Siphon, not the other way around.

It is because we have a bunch of fun playing other decks, exploring other avenues, discussing other strategies that we are so disappointed when we pick up that boring Andy list again and all of a sudden have a much easier game.

You can love a game, and still point out it's flaws as it turns out.


12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Swaner
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Quote:
I agree Anarchs need a boost. They seem to have a high density of edge case cards--higher than the other factions, I would say. Maybe I am wrong, but Duggar's doesn't immediately strike me as being outside the edge case trend. I do think, however, Anarchs have some of THE best programs in this game. Sadly, many Anarch decks I have seen do not actualize this. Here's to hoping for some more Anarch goodies in the future!


Well, it lets you dig 10 cards down. That's not nothing. And you can do it over, and over, and over again. Not sure about you, but there have been times I click for cards for a full turn hoping to turn something useful up. It gets you deeper than just four cards.

As far a Anarch programs go... Their problem has always been that the programs are simply too cheap to splash. The whole efficient mess of breakers is a trivial amount of influence to include as 1-ofs in the other two factions, which have great tutoring.

I added some stuff to my other post if you're interested. I didn't want to double-post, and you posted while I was editing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erin OConnor
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
What is your favorite color?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am looking to give a couple things a try.

Motivation + Oracle May.
Looks like a good way to get card and money.

Donut Tanges + Prepaid VoicePAD (or Public Terminal)
Seems like a good way to sap the economic power of the corporation while you break even as the runner. Wonder if there is a possibility of crafting a "runless" runner deck.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am not convinced, with Jinteki getting a boost, that drawing up cards just to discard up to half of them is going to be that viable--not to mention you have to play something else to get that 4th click, right? Not trying to split hairs here, just saying it doesn't strike me as a standout.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Kincaid
United States
Toms River
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
SneakySly wrote:
To start, I want to preface by saying that ultimately I agree that Netrunner is still completely fine, has a nice diverse meta, and is a great game. Alex and I don't always agree on everything, and in this case I think he is exaggerating some very true and real grievances that do exist, but that deserved to be aired and discussed.

So with that said I just want to talk about this in particular.

Vash2002 wrote:

We're coming to the SAME problem again. People see winning deck lists , replicate them , and play them in tournament. Because the list is strong , it wins. But because people THINK it's 'the best' list , it gets played much more than other lists. People are not trying to blaze a new path , they're trying to go down the path of least resistance and the one that is already clear.


I think that this is a complete misconception that I see repeated a lot in various places.

In general, the reason why some of the stronger players bitch a little more vocally than others is the exact opposite of this actually. It is because the more active competitive players play so many games and try so many things that they complain about stuff like Siphon, not the other way around.

It is because we have a bunch of fun playing other decks, exploring other avenues, discussing other strategies that we are so disappointed when we pick up that boring Andy list again and all of a sudden have a much easier game.

You can love a game, and still point out it's flaws as it turns out.




I'll give you that point sir. I cannot deny that the boring ol andy list is a great and consistent list. I also want to thank you for contributing to this discussion ! I love what you've done for the game , growing it as a whole.

However , I would like to point out that it isn't just about the deck that you're playing , but how well you pilot it that day. If you play the best with the tools that you brought to the table , then you'll win the day. It comes across as being an easier game not just because the tools are great , but that they're innately easier to use than others.

As runners , we know that we can mold the game to a situation that is best suited for our deck. Some decks require a little more work or finesse than others do. But they can still get the job done.

I would also like to point out that even with an Andy list , the corp/runner balance is still not very skewed towards the runner in terms of win percentage. We're talking a difference of like 5% here. That shows that the balance of the game is rather healthy. If you compare that to the other runners , she wins more , but not an unhealthy amount more than other runners.

I think people get lost in the fact that Andy has won more tournaments , but that's only measuring success rate against other runners. It's not measuring the win rate against corp in an individual game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daine .

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I wish I could agree with more of this post. In general, I get your point and approve of it. There IS certainly room for some different thinking in the game (even at the top), but I think it's also important to realize that this game is still good because of a lot of constant effort by the designers not to screw it up. And they could very easily screw it up.

Our goal as a netrunner community needs to be a partial check on bad design creeping in. While the guys at FFG clearly aren't asking the netrunner community what we think about every decision (plugged-in style), it's clear that they're aware of our concerns and take them into account as they continue to design.

All complex systems--be they LCGs or sports leagues--need some sort of balance. If the winner of the Super Bowl got the first three draft picks for winning, it would only take a few seasons for the NFL to become wildly unbalanced and much less fair/fun. I think people are right to be annoyed that FFG has taken NBN FA--an archetype which already dominated at worlds--and given it a new powerful tool in eah pack of the Spin Cycle and now in H&P. For our game to stay healthy, FFG needs to learn how to work the concept of negative feedback. And if they can't, we as a community need to help them do so. While there will always be people like us who assiduously avoid the group think decks, it's bad for the game if those group think decks become increasingly powerful. Surely Fast Track won't "break the game," but it will probably mean that we will see an additional 10% of players at regionals playing NBN than we would have had FFG not given it to them (or made it less obscenely powerful. They couldn't have added a cost? Or made it a double?). Ultimately, that's worse for the game.

So in short, I appreciate your optimism. I share it. But don't let your optimism excuse FFG for their mistakes.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Kincaid
United States
Toms River
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Daine wrote:
I wish I could agree with more of this post. In general, I get your point and approve of it. There IS certainly room for some different thinking in the game (even at the top), but I think it's also important to realize that this game is still good because of a lot of constant effort by the designers not to screw it up. And they could very easily screw it up.

Our goal as a netrunner community needs to be a partial check on bad design creeping in. While the guys at FFG clearly aren't asking the netrunner community what we think about every decision (plugged-in style), it's clear that they're aware of our concerns and take them into account as they continue to design.

All complex systems--be they LCGs or sports leagues--need some sort of balance. If the winner of the Super Bowl got the first three draft picks for winning, it would only take a few seasons for the NFL to become wildly unbalanced and much less fair/fun. I think people are right to be annoyed that FFG has taken NBN FA--an archetype which already dominated at worlds--and given it a new powerful tool in eah pack of the Spin Cycle and now in H&P. For our game to stay healthy, FFG needs to learn how to work the concept of negative feedback. And if they can't, we as a community need to help them do so. While there will always be people like us who assiduously avoid the group think decks, it's bad for the game if those group think decks become increasingly powerful. Surely Fast Track won't "break the game," but it will probably mean that we will see an additional 10% of players at regionals playing NBN than we would have had FFG not given it to them (or made it less obscenely powerful. They couldn't have added a cost? Or made it a double?). Ultimately, that's worse for the game.

So in short, I appreciate your optimism. I share it. But don't let your optimism excuse FFG for their mistakes.



Something I'm curious of. I haven't followed Game of Thrones LCG , but was there ever a point to where there were problematic cards that didn't have answers? I know that there is a banned/errata list , but that game is MUCH MUCH older and has many more cards than netrunner. Therefore , it's inevitible that they print a card that has a crazy interaction with another card , because design space gets tight.

Even then , the banned/errata'ed list is very tiny , from what I know. And that game went on strong for a very long time (still is). So I have faith that FF won't mess up netrunner. Especially since netrunner is their most popular LCG by leaps and bounds.

And the designers are listening to us. I'm confident that they know how to take the feedback we're giving them and what to do with it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [11] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.