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Subject: An Adventure In Deckbuilding: Chaos Theory Overmind. rss

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Captain Frisk
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Because I'm a jerk - when Kroen said this re: Q-Chip:

kroen wrote:
As if it weren't bad enough. This card is so bad, in fact, that even the Data Hound Hypotethis doesn't apply to it. And please, don't try to claim is somewhat playable with Overmind. It isn't.


I took it as a personal challenge to make it work.

The theory was that while Q-Chip is indeed garbage, it might have a place in a chaos theory overmind deck that indended to eat the q-chip for cash after using it for the extra token.

So I whipped this up and took it to the game store last night:

Chaos Overmind

Chaos Theory: Wünderkind (Cyber Exodus)

Event (16)
2x Account Siphon (Core Set) ••••• •••
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
2x Levy AR Lab Access (Creation and Control)
3x Scavenge (Creation and Control)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Test Run (Cyber Exodus)

Hardware (11)
2x Akamatsu Mem Chip (Core Set)
2x e3 Feedback Implants (Trace Amount) ••••
1x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
3x Q-Coherence Chip (Honor and Profit)
3x R&D Interface (Future Proof)

Resource (8)
2x Aesop's Pawnshop (Core Set)
3x Professional Contacts (Creation and Control)
3x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)

Icebreaker (5)
1x Corroder (Core Set) ••
1x Deus X (A Study in Static)
1x Femme Fatale (Core Set)
2x Overmind (Honor and Profit)

15 influence spent (max 15)
40 cards (min 40)
Cards up to Honor and Profit

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

The theory was straightforward:

Chaos theory gives overmind a natural 4 chips on it. E3 lets you stretch its life longer. Scavenge lets you recharge it. Test run lets you run with one for a turn and not care if you burn all the counters. Akamatsu and Q-Chip get more counters, and Pawnshop eats them. Since you don't need the other breakers, you have room for siphon recursion. You have to bring 1 corroder and a femme because of Wraparound / Swordsman.

At least - this was the theory.

I played 3 games with it - all vs. Jinteki. The first game was iceless - so I didn't get to use it for its intended purpose

The second 2 games were against the same PE deck - one that consists of a decent (1/3 of deck) amount of ice. I won the first game via R&D access. I lost the second when I mistakenly discarded my 2nd Levvy (i guess I had somehow lost the first one to damage, and the cards must have stuck together when I was looking through my discard) and subsequently decked myself.

What I learned from actually playing:

1. Overmind is expensive to use. As a recovering AndyDeperadoSucker player, the concept of paying real money to run is not great. Since you have to clear tags (because Pro Contacts / Pawnshop), siphon / same old thing wasn't a source of economy - but frequently "skip your turn, drain $5 from the corp", because it cost so much to get in.

2. While you have this great idea of how much early aggression this can provide, if the corp has a decent amount of ice and can stall a bit, you're left with a deck that can get in anywhere - but can't do so efficiently.

3. I had too much test run and scavenge. Unlike Shaper Parasite recursion decks, I found that I frequently had too much "recharge my overmind" and not nearly enough ways to make effective use of my ability to run because it was so damn expensive.

Believe it or not, I wanted an LLDS Processor!

4. E3 isn't the enabler that you thought it was. I thought I had learned my lesson from playing Darwin... but "counter" constraint was much less of an issue than I expected. Dollars were much more constrained. Also - with only 2 in the deck, I didn't see it in every game.

5. As per all of the findings above - the constraints here were all about economy - not about number of tokens - so I'm sad to report that my next version of the deck will be:

-2 E3
+1 Siphon (Yes - even this bananas deck wants m0hr siphon)

-3 Q-Chip (You were right kroen)
+3 Daily Casts - the extra $3 out of this means relative to eating a q-chip make it stronger than just netting an extra overmind counter.
-2 Akamatsu

That leaves me with 3 cards. LLDS processor? Makers Eye? Indexing? Escher? NACH to save clicks while eating my tags from siphon? Diesel? Armitage? Maybe -1 Siphon +1 Parasite +1 Legwork?

I'll post back after Version 2 testing.
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John O'Brien
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I've been running a similar deck recently. It has only Overminds (plus one Creeper as an emergency anti-Swordsman measure, fodder otherwise) in its program suite.

Apart from that, I went all in on hardware. All. In. Three of every chip in the game (except Q-Coherence ). Three Replicators, three Inside Men. Also went Kate instead of Chaos Theory to save a credit a turn on installing.

Economy comes from three Underworld Contacts (obviously Dysons are already in my deck, just one needed to trigger UC), and three Kati Jones. I also have three Cyberfeeders and two Spinal Modems (4 link means traces are almost auto-win). It's basically all drip economy and recurring credits, but clickless which is good.

E3s help if I'm short of Overmind counters, but like you I've found that they don't run out too fast. Three Clone Chips, three Test Runs, three Scavenges make sure that my Overminds can keep coming back.

A one-of Aesop's is in there somewhere, so that I can start breaking down my huge rig if I need the money now.

At the end of my game yesterday, I had 16 pieces of hardware, pretty much all supporting one program. Glorious.
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Lysander
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If you feel as though you have too much recursion and not enough money, why not swap to Criminal and import Scavenge? You'd gain a lot of MU that way and can more reliably use Siphon and E3.
 
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Captain Frisk
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Lysander1 wrote:
If you feel as though you have too much recursion and not enough money, why not swap to Criminal and import Scavenge? You'd gain a lot of MU that way and can more reliably use Siphon and E3.


Also considered. I can get back to 5 MU by using desperado... but then we're not really shaking up the meta any more right?
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Zeb
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Captain_Frisk wrote:

-3 Q-Chip (You were right kroen)


I was with you in the beginning, "Yeah! Don't dismiss cards out of hand!", but then I saw this, LOL
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Captain Frisk
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Zebadiah wrote:
Captain_Frisk wrote:

-3 Q-Chip (You were right kroen)


I was with you in the beginning, "Yeah! Don't dismiss cards out of hand!", but then I saw this, LOL


Come on now! I built the deck, I tested it, it wasn't a complete dismissal!



Basically, the q-chips were just easy marks and the occasional extra counter. That just wasn't good enough to make up for the fact that you can get better economy elsewhere.

So frequently you get an idea in your head about how card interactions are going to work, and then its another thing entirely when you try to put the deck together (see every Jinteki deck ever!) when you realize that it just doesn't fit.

This time I was actually able to get Jank to the table, and then saw the folly of my ways. Valueable learning experience!

Now - maybe over in Criminal with Hostage'd pawnshop?
 
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Zeb
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I wasn't saying you were dismissing anything, just that I liked that you took someone else's dismissal and tested it.
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
As a recovering AndyDeperadoSucker player

This. This 100 times It is easy to see from the decklist.

You have Aesop's, but no Desperado, no Datasuckers, no John Masanori. And even no Prepaid VoicePAD. So you don't want Account Siphon and Dirty Laundry as your economy. You want Daily Casts and Armitage Codebusting. And, as you want to be quick and avoid setup costs, you want Diesel as card draw, not Professional Contacts.

Captain_Frisk wrote:
Believe it or not, I wanted an LLDS Processor!

What about Ice Analyser? Though I'm not sure, you have plenty of Aesop's targets anyway.

I'd start with the following changes:
-2 Account Siphon
-3 Dirty Laundry
-3 Professional Contacts
+3 Armitage Codebusting
+3 Daily Casts
+3 Diesel

Effect: 41 cards, 7 influence used.

What's a high inf, powerful Criminal card which is not Account Siphon? It's of course Desperado So let's replace Akamatsu Mem Chips with it. Two remaining influence can for example be a Stimhack and a Crescentus. And a second Plascrete could definitely be useful. Now you have 4 cards too many. I think two sure cuts should be 2nd Levy and 3rd Same Old Thing. Two other need testing. Wild guess: 3rd RDI and 3rd Test Run. What do you think about those changes?
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Captain Frisk
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hsiale wrote:
Captain_Frisk wrote:
As a recovering AndyDeperadoSucker player

This. This 100 times It is easy to see from the decklist.

You have Aesop's, but no Desperado, no Datasuckers, no John Masanori. And even no Prepaid VoicePAD. So you don't want Account Siphon and Dirty Laundry as your economy. You want Daily Casts and Armitage Codebusting. And, as you want to be quick and avoid setup costs, you want Diesel as card draw, not Professional Contacts.

Captain_Frisk wrote:
Believe it or not, I wanted an LLDS Processor!

What about Ice Analyser? Though I'm not sure, you have plenty of Aesop's targets anyway.

I'd start with the following changes:
-2 Account Siphon
-3 Dirty Laundry
-3 Professional Contacts
+3 Armitage Codebusting
+3 Daily Casts
+3 Diesel

Effect: 41 cards, 7 influence used.

What's a high inf, powerful Criminal card which is not Account Siphon? It's of course Desperado So let's replace Akamatsu Mem Chips with it. Two remaining influence can for example be a Stimhack and a Crescentus. And a second Plascrete could definitely be useful. Now you have 4 cards too many. I think two sure cuts should be 2nd Levy and 3rd Same Old Thing. Two other need testing. Wild guess: 3rd RDI and 3rd Test Run. What do you think about those changes?


I'll play around. I will defend my dirty laundry decision... i know that in Andy I will frequently dirty laundry archives just for econ (desperado / sucker) - but in this deck I try to exclusively use it while making a run I wanted to make anyway, so I'm gaining $3 and a run - which IMHO is comparable to Daily Casts - even with pawnshop. If i have to use it for a sad archives run, then agreed 100% that its worse.

I'm going to skip on ice analyzer - because i found that I was very rarely installing programs.

Agreed on the 2nd plascrete, i had 41 cards and cut it because I was pretty sure that everyone last night was going to be running Jinteki.
 
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mathew rynich
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It seems forming a strategy around these AI breakers always runs into the same problem. Money. I wanted my Darwin only deck to be competitive, but it never got there even on it's best day. The same with my Knight only Exile deck.

I think these breaker are best at their intended purpose, which is a stop gap until your full rig is up and running. Overmind enables facechecking, which is nice. Darwin gives you great early game aggressiveness against anything low strength ice, Knight and Crypsis can get you through small ice cascades. They all have the issue of being expensive to run though and everytime I make a deck centered on using one of these cards I run into money problems. E3 should help, but I never seem to get it on the board when I need it.

The only one that's cheap to run is Atman (though it does cost quite a bit to set up). I think it's no coincidence that it also is the most popular AI only strategy.

All that said I still want to try an Overmind only deck. I just got my cards yesterday
 
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Glenn Glenn
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Maybe to run an over mind re k you need deep red. It is like having three of those crappy chips out at once! Couple that with chaos and maybe knight/e3, it could totally work (maybe)!
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Ruan Hallen
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I have a similar deck - Chaos Theory Overmind - but I went a pretty different route:

Chaos Theory: Wünderkind (Cyber Exodus)

Event (10)
3x Quality Time (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Scavenge (Creation and Control)
3x Stimhack (Core Set) •••
2x Test Run (Cyber Exodus)

Hardware (11)
3x Clone Chip (Creation and Control)
3x CyberSolutions Mem Chip (Fear and Loathing)
3x e3 Feedback Implants (Trace Amount) ••••• •
2x R&D Interface (Future Proof)

Resource (13)
2x Aesop's Pawnshop (Core Set)
3x Armitage Codebusting (Core Set)
2x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Personal Workshop (Cyber Exodus)
3x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)

Icebreaker (3)
3x Overmind (Honor and Profit)

Program (3)
3x Grappling Hook (Honor and Profit) ••••• •

15 influence spent (max 15)
40 cards (min 40)
Cards up to Honor and Profit

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

The idea for this deck is vaguely like Noise-shop, only you're installing hardware onto your Personal Workshops. This lets you draw aggressively down the deck via Diesels/Quality Times, install onto a Personal Workshop (of which you may have multiple out at a time), and then you have the option of Stimhacking to pay them off.

Clone Chips in the deck allow you to run right through a trash program ice and reinstall an armed Overmind that can deal with the next piece down the line.

Aesops lets you sell off your used Overmind so you can hopefully recoup some of the loss, can sell off a mostly used Armitage, ect.

Grappling Hooks go in the deck for use on big big ice that you don't want to pay for breaking with Overmind, and with E3 you can break all subroutines if you want.

That said, I have yet to try this deck out in an actual games, so we shall see.
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Steven Tu
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I don't understand why you would have ever used 3 Q-chips if you only had 2 akamatsu mem chips... In faction XD

Great thought exercise! I'm saddened that it's basically an Account Siphon deck, replacing Knight package with Overmind which is more resiliant but WAY more expensive.

This brings me back to the sad rant that the runner game has very little variation, compared to the corp game
 
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Captain Frisk
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Tuism wrote:
I don't understand why you would have ever used 3 Q-chips if you only had 2 akamatsu mem chips... In faction XD

Great thought exercise! I'm saddened that it's basically an Account Siphon deck, replacing Knight package with Overmind which is more resiliant but WAY more expensive.

This brings me back to the sad rant that the runner game has very little variation, compared to the corp game


The whole point if the original deck was to use q-chip to the max. I considered 3x q chip to be a design constraint. What I leaned was that the combo of memory for counters was less important than pure econ.
 
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Glenn Glenn
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I really think deep red is necessary. Not only does it enable knight nonsense, but its another 3 credits worth of subroutines every time you bring over mind out. Knight also covers a huge hole in your strategy that is costing you a bunch of bucks, big single-sub ice.

Q chip seems just bad, every time you recycle overmind you lose them, it seems like an exercise in futility. I just don't think its worth the card in hand or the click to play it. Deep red does the same thing, and doesn't go away.
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About a month ago I was toying with a similar idea.

My deck had account siphon, Makers eye, and indexing in it - all as options to use on the opening turn. It could reliably get Overmind out with 4 counters, have 4 credits, and make one of those 3 incredibly interesting first turn runs. (Makers Eye and Indexing being more about information digs on the Corp than scoring)

Then it recured Overmind if it needed to or started to go for a typical rig and used the rest of those events still in the deck to maintain that pressure.

Was fun, and didnt bother to worry about overmind after the first turn.
 
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Peter Hopkins
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I put together a CT/Overmind deck and ran it last night, won one, lost one. Both games could have gone either way, but I think there's definitely something there.

I was running Deep Red for extra counters. As you're breaking subs for free, the only thing that costs you money is pumping Overmind up to strength, so I figured cards which reduce ICE strength were a good call. I was running Ice Carver last night, but I had a change of heart and switched in Bishop today (because everyone loves running a card no-one else ever uses). I may yet go back.

Aesops were in for trashing used Overminds and Armitage. Used it once, so have taken it out.

I had Knight in for any high strength ICE. As I have Deep Red, I get use out of its Caissa ability with Knight and Bishop. I realise the Caissa use MU, but honestly running out of power tokens was never a concern. I normally had 8 or 9 on Overmind! And various Scavenges and Test Runs to replenish tokens if needs be.

I also put Omni-drive in, it gives you an extra power counter as you don't use your MU when installing Overmind, and a free cred for strength boosting.

Anyway, here is my deck list:
Matter Overmind (40 cards)

Chaos Theory: Wunderkind

Event (16)
3 Diesel
1 Indexing
3 Scavenge
3 Sure Gamble
3 Test Run
3 The Maker's Eye

Hardware (10)
3 Akamatsu Mem Chip
3 Deep Red
2 Omni-Drive
2 R&D Interface

Resource (5)
3 Armitage Codebusting
2 Kati Jones

Icebreaker (6)
3 Knight
3 Overmind

Program (3)
3 Bishop

It's fun to play, the various Interfaces/Makers Eye keeps the R&D pressure on. They mean you make fewer runs but make sure they count.

I was toying around with another idea, which was a suite of Run events (Account Siphon, Indexing, Maker's Eye, all of them kind of things) and then a full set of Planned Assaults to pull out the right one when you need it. The strength of Overmind is that, with enough money, you can get in anywhere (easier than you can with Crypsis, and immune to Virus wipe). But remember, with all these decks, a single Swordsman shuts you down entirely!

Ultimately, I think Overmind is just going to be in decks like Crypsis, Faerie or Femme is, as an emergency breaker that lets you survive a nasty surprise or gets you into a server you NEED access to. Still, it's fun to build a deck around it and see what happens!
 
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Daniel Wray
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Seems counterintuitive, but why not run Magnum Opus for economy? Sure, it eats two counters, but overwhelmingly those who have tested Overmind mention they lack money, not counters. With your recursion in Clone Chip/Test Run/Scavenge, you have plenty of ways to get counters, MO will fill the money needs, and you have program tutors to get it out if needed.

I will be tempted to try it out.

I also like the idea of LLDS with this plan, maybe even Helpful AI. Every added program strength adds up to big savings when dealing with multiple ICE.
 
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Kevin Smit
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My take on it was to try to fit it into a Vamp/ Medium strategy, reasoning that being able to pressure remotes would stop the majority of score attempts until I could st up the full combo and raid R&D. Unfortunately the Overmind combo doesn't really address the weaknesses at the core of the strategy, and having two-of of some key cards that you can't search out hurts consistency too much.

I feel like Overmind requires a deck strategy that focuses on getting that one key run, but E3 is too much of a requirement to fit into anything except criminal for now. Maybe when Shapers get their hardware tutor it'll be more consistent. I was actually quite pleased with how Qchip was working. You only need it to be useful once to get what you want out of it (at least in my build).

Initially I was using Magnum Opus, but it's such a tempo hit to use, aside from the slight skornergy (anyone? eh? no? )with memory for Overmind. I switched over to an asset economy but I don't know how much i really tested it. The thing I found was that I couldn't get enough card draw no matter how hard I tried. I think you might even be able to make a viable economy out of Aesops with this style of deck because you can always sell Q-Chip, All-Nighter, used Overminds, Armitage, Same old Thing...

Anyway, it's pretty flawed, but here's where I was in testing:

CT Vamp (41 cards)

Chaos Theory: Wunderkind

Event (18)
3 Diesel
2 Dirty Laundry
1 Modded
2 Quality Time
2 Scavenge
3 Sure Gamble
3 Test Run
2 Vamp

Hardware (5)
1 Clone Chip
2 E3 Feedback Implants
2 Q-Coherence Chip

Resource (11)
3 All-nighter
2 Armitage Codebusting
3 Daily Casts
2 Kati Jones
1 Same Old Thing

Icebreaker (5)
1 Femme Fatale
1 Inti
3 Overmind

Program (2)
2 Medium
 
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Chris D
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Here's my take on the concept. So far have only had a few test games, but have been very happy with the results. Looking for suggestions, comments, and any "but what if..."s you can think of.

Oh Me, Oh My, The Overmind (40 cards)

Chaos Theory: Wunderkind

Event (14)
2 Diesel
3 Scavenge
3 Sure Gamble
3 Test Run
3 The Maker's Eye

Hardware (14)
2 Clone Chip
2 Cyberfeeder ••
3 CyberSolutions Mem Chip
3 Deep Red •••
2 E3 Feedback Implants ••••
2 Plascrete Carapace

Resource (6)
2 Armitage Codebusting
2 Daily Casts
2 Kati Jones

Icebreaker (5)
2 Knight ••••
3 Overmind

Program (1)
1 Parasite ••

Built with http://netrunner.meteor.com/



Pretty run of the mill on the over mind front - drop deep red, have that men boost, load with counters. Test run one out for a single big run, and then reinstall for new counters. Scavenge to reset counters again. I tend to keep knight in hand until I see a wraparound or something else scary. Even with deep red, if the expectation is a focus on overmind, it can be a nasty surprise at the right time. One-of parasite is in case I run into a swordsman, or if I run out of knights for the big ice (save some cash boosting overmind). I love overmind so far, but it is just simply expensive to use. The cyberfeeders are a lifesaver - definitely worth it to drop them early.

Thoughts? Comments? Advice? Still haven't brought this to a tournament setting, so definitely want ideas to tweak it before I do. Thanks!
 
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Peter Hopkins
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Everyone else seems to be running E3 out of Overmind... Do you really find you need it? If you're resigned to paying the creds to break subs, why don't you just run Crypsis instead?!
 
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Chris D
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unitled wrote:
Everyone else seems to be running E3 out of Overmind... Do you really find you need it? If you're resigned to paying the creds to break subs, why don't you just run Crypsis instead?!


E3 is definitely a huge help to the build. The solution isn't necessarily to just break one routine per ice with overmind and pay for the rest. It just gives you the flexibility to do that when appropriate. It is still IMO a better alternative to Crypsis since you don't have to click for the virus counters ahead of time, and you have that choice of oaying a counter or a cred for each sub. It's additionally helpful (specific to my buil) for ice with many subs and a higher strength (like early game hive). It serves the purpose of helping cut knight's spending in half, which can be a lifesaver.

I definitely see what you're saying, but at least for me, I have found it extremely helpful to have that flexibility.
 
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Christian Ermentrud
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So you are using Knight for the big ice and Overmind for the cheap ETR ice?
I am wondering if Swordsman will be in fashion again pretty soon with all the AI breaker being "en vogue" again.
 
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Chris D
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Ermel wrote:
So you are using Knight for the big ice and Overmind for the cheap ETR ice?
I am wondering if Swordsman will be in fashion again pretty soon with all the AI breaker being "en vogue" again.


yup that's exactly it! and I am definitely scared to hit a swordsman, as it will certainly slow me down. but the parasite will take care of it instantly, and there's already enough built in recursion that it should only be a nuisance for a short while.

alternatively the parasite is used just to save cash on single subroutine big ice (drop the cost for overmind over time). this is helpful when knight is tied up on things like early game hive or komainu
 
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Clyde W
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cynchwyrm wrote:
Seems counterintuitive, but why not run Magnum Opus for economy? Sure, it eats two counters, but overwhelmingly those who have tested Overmind mention they lack money, not counters. With your recursion in Clone Chip/Test Run/Scavenge, you have plenty of ways to get counters, MO will fill the money needs, and you have program tutors to get it out if needed.

I will be tempted to try it out.

I also like the idea of LLDS with this plan, maybe even Helpful AI. Every added program strength adds up to big savings when dealing with multiple ICE.
I threw together a CT Overmind deck last night too and this what I came up with (MO for money):
Theoretical Overmind

Chaos Theory: Wünderkind (Cyber Exodus)

Event (14)
2x Account Siphon (Core Set) ••••• •••
3x Diesel (Core Set)
1x Indexing (Future Proof)
3x Scavenge (Creation and Control)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
2x Test Run (Cyber Exodus)

Hardware (11)
3x Akamatsu Mem Chip (Core Set)
3x Omni-Drive (Creation and Control)
2x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
2x R&D Interface (Future Proof)
1x Replicator (Humanity's Shadow)

Resource (4)
2x Aesop's Pawnshop (Core Set)
2x Personal Workshop (Cyber Exodus)

Icebreaker (6)
1x Corroder (Core Set) ••
1x Deus X (A Study in Static)
3x Overmind (Honor and Profit)
1x Sharpshooter (True Colors)

Program (5)
3x Datasucker (Core Set) •••
1x Djinn (Core Set) ••
1x Magnum Opus (Core Set)

15 influence spent (max 15)
40 cards (min 40)
Cards up to Honor and Profit

Decklist published on NetrunnerDB.

The idea is to get your Overminds and Djinn onto the Omni-drive so that they take up no memory. This allows you to host your Datasuckers on the Djinn and they also take up no memory. MO will take up 2MU of your possible 8MU. An early Replicator allows you to get this setup, and Diesels and Test Runs help too.

You can leave Corroder, Deus Ex, unused Overminds, Sharpshooter, and Plasacretes hanging out on your Workshop until you need them in a pinch, and you can always sell your unused or spent programs to Aesop's.

A fun combo is Test Run for a Overmind, Run, Run, Scavenge.
 
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