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BattleCON: Devastation of Indines» Forums » General

Subject: Balancing & Tiers rss

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Nate L
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So I was wondering how balanced are the characters for this game and is there any kind of either tier list or strategy guides?
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The game is pretty balanced. There are some lop-sided match-ups but that's to be expected in a game with 48 tournament-legal characters. Creating a tier list is something that takes many data points and we just don't have that much data yet. There is a thread floating around somewhere that is attempting to gather data and create a match chart.

Edit: Here is the thread.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1133732/developing-a-match-c...

Marco does character strategy guide videos. Check out his "BattleGUIDES" threads here on BGG and on YouTube.
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Aaron Phillips
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stygldponyboy wrote:
So I was wondering how balanced are the characters for this game and is there any kind of either tier list or strategy guides?


Overall, the game looks to be relatively well-balanced. We are working on a [thread=1133732]match chart[/thread (less subjective than a tier list) as a community.

Each fighter has some matchups that are better/worse than others, but overall each fighter seems to be gravitating towards a 50% total win rate. We don't have near enough match reports yet to draw any solid conclusions, but the data we do have is trending towards showing an overall balance.


If you were to select a specific matchup, it might appear that the game is unbalanced (Eligor loses to Shekhtur in 7 of 10 reported matches), but if you look at each fighter in total, balance does appear (Karin has won 55% of her 63 reported matches - pretty close to even odds).

As far as strategy guides, Marco (mnmkami) has been posting BattleGuides videos on youtube and you can also find them on the videos section of this site or in the strategy section of this forum. He currently has videos out for each of the Flight 1 and 2 characters, as well as a small handful of general strategy vids.
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Anon Y. Mous
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cgrater wrote:
If you were to select a specific matchup, it might appear that the game is unbalanced (Eligor loses to Shekhtur in 7 of 10 reported matches)


Using a dataset of 10 matches to say anything is meaningless. Since player skill makes more of a difference than the matchup, in small datasets there's way too much noise to draw any conclusions about balance. Notably, Eligor vs Shekhtur is the recommended beginner matchup, and Eligor requires a lot more skill to play than Shekhtur, so this is going to distort the data despite this matchup being pretty much dead even.
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Joshua Christensen
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I think devastation is way too new and BattleCon as a whole has so many characters that it seems like it would be really early to be able to make any claims about balance. The reported mu chart doesn't mean anything. It doesn't tell us the skill level of the players involved so the numbers on thy chart don't matter. I don't think we will be able to make any solid claims about balance and tier lists until this game's online version goes live. Even then it will probably take 6 months to a year (maybe even longer with the huge cast of 48 and growing) of online play to really get a good mu chart and tier list together.
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ClanNatioy wrote:
I think devastation is way too new and BattleCon as a whole has so many characters that it seems like it would be really early to be able to make any claims about balance. The reported mu chart doesn't mean anything. It doesn't tell us the skill level of the players involved so the numbers on thy chart don't matter. I don't think we will be able to make any solid claims about balance and tier lists until this game's online version goes live. Even then it will probably take 6 months to a year (maybe even longer with the huge cast of 48 and growing) of online play to really get a good mu chart and tier list together.


Well, if player skill is a concern for you, then the online web portal will not alleviate that.

Truth is, tier lists are always faulty because of the reasons we have already mentioned.
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Aaron White
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ClanNatioy wrote:
I think devastation is way too new and BattleCon as a whole has so many characters that it seems like it would be really early to be able to make any claims about balance. The reported mu chart doesn't mean anything. It doesn't tell us the skill level of the players involved so the numbers on thy chart don't matter. I don't think we will be able to make any solid claims about balance and tier lists until this game's online version goes live. Even then it will probably take 6 months to a year (maybe even longer with the huge cast of 48 and growing) of online play to really get a good mu chart and tier list together.


While it can be definitely argued that balance is impossible to predict for a game like BattleCON, I like to refer back to the play test method used. One of the two players would set their attack pair face up. This would allow them to confirm that the player had at least 2 or more options for responding to a situation.

So with this in mind, even lop-sided matches are winnable, it just requires putting your preferred character strategy on its head.
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Alison Mandible
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Rook96 wrote:
While it can be definitely argued that balance is impossible to predict for a game like BattleCON, I like to refer back to the play test method used. One of the two players would set their attack pair face up. This would allow them to confirm that the player had at least 2 or more options for responding to a situation.


Sure, but if my good options mean I win the beat by 1, and my bad options mean I lose by 4, I'm not going to be as happy as in a matchup with the same "number of options" where I do as much damage winning the beat as I take losing the beat.
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Joshua Christensen
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dorktron2000 wrote:
ClanNatioy wrote:
I think devastation is way too new and BattleCon as a whole has so many characters that it seems like it would be really early to be able to make any claims about balance. The reported mu chart doesn't mean anything. It doesn't tell us the skill level of the players involved so the numbers on thy chart don't matter. I don't think we will be able to make any solid claims about balance and tier lists until this game's online version goes live. Even then it will probably take 6 months to a year (maybe even longer with the huge cast of 48 and growing) of online play to really get a good mu chart and tier list together.


Well, if player skill is a concern for you, then the online web portal will not alleviate that.

Truth is, tier lists are always faulty because of the reasons we have already mentioned.


I'm not sure how the online play wouldn't alleviate this. Are you saying that all the people playing online are going to be bad at the game?

The reason I think accurate mu numbers and tier lists wont be able to be made until the online is released is because all the best players will be playing online. As opposed to one gaming group of 4+ people where they all might be bad but one of them is less bad so he appears to be good or even a game store of 10+ could have the same problem. When you get a much larger group of people playing online the best/top players will emerge and their word on how balance/mu numbers are for the characters they play will be a ton more accurate then any random person playing at home saying I won with Iaxus vs Endrbyt.
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ClanNatioy wrote:
dorktron2000 wrote:
ClanNatioy wrote:
I think devastation is way too new and BattleCon as a whole has so many characters that it seems like it would be really early to be able to make any claims about balance. The reported mu chart doesn't mean anything. It doesn't tell us the skill level of the players involved so the numbers on thy chart don't matter. I don't think we will be able to make any solid claims about balance and tier lists until this game's online version goes live. Even then it will probably take 6 months to a year (maybe even longer with the huge cast of 48 and growing) of online play to really get a good mu chart and tier list together.


Well, if player skill is a concern for you, then the online web portal will not alleviate that.

Truth is, tier lists are always faulty because of the reasons we have already mentioned.


I'm not sure how the online play wouldn't alleviate this. Are you saying that all the people playing online are going to be bad at the game?



Are you saying they are all going to be good? There is no way you can guarantee or measure player skill, regardless of whether it is online or offline play.
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Joshua Christensen
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dorktron2000 wrote:

Are you saying they are all going to be good? There is no way you can guarantee or measure player skill, regardless of whether it is online or offline play.


I wasn't saying they would all be good. My point is that the more players you have playing against each other the more you will be able to tell who is really good at the game and who's opinion matters.

Let's say in a gaming group of 5 players one player wins 80% of the time but when that same player goes online to play he only wins 40% of them time and never wins tournaments. You could say that this player is quite skilled among his friends but over all he is below average.

I'm not sure how 70-80% win rate and winning tournaments in an online community of 100+ wouldn't be an indication that some one is really good at the game. If that wouldn't be a measure of some ones skill then you wouldn't be able to say any team or athlete is good at their sport. Now I'm not saying that some one with this win rate exists because the online implementation isn't live yet but if there was some one that was dominating in tournaments and doing really well playing against random opponents how could you say anything but that player is good at the game? how could that not be a measure of skill?

My overall point is that a large group of players proves who's actually good at the game and not just good among their small group of players so most collected data to date really doesn't matters all that much (at least to me) until people can prove they are good at the game by doing well in a large community of players. People might be able to prove that characters are broken through trouncing people in PBF but when it comes to making overall balance and mu claims I'll wait to hear that from the opinions of the expert players that are bound to pop up in a large community.

I really don't get what you mean by you can't ever measure a players skill?
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Aaron White
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grasa_total wrote:
Rook96 wrote:
While it can be definitely argued that balance is impossible to predict for a game like BattleCON, I like to refer back to the play test method used. One of the two players would set their attack pair face up. This would allow them to confirm that the player had at least 2 or more options for responding to a situation.


Sure, but if my good options mean I win the beat by 1, and my bad options mean I lose by 4, I'm not going to be as happy as in a matchup with the same "number of options" where I do as much damage winning the beat as I take losing the beat.


This just made me think of our match between Malandrax versus Karin & Jager . . . point taken. robot
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Alison Mandible
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Rook96 wrote:
This just made me think of our match between Malandrax versus Karin & Jager . . . point taken. robot


Or, in the other direction, my current Malandrax vs. Ottavia. :/
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K
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The extreme number of matchups not only means no one will really be able to know what they're talking about for a long time, it also means that truly thorough playtesting by humans was pretty much impossible. But all hope is not lost, because this sort of design strategy (throw a bunch of cool, fun to play, super powerful characters in a blender and see what happens) can actually result in a truly great game, because the actual balance is so hard for players to figure out that even if it ends up imbalanced the game will be playable for a very long time before the code is "cracked." Maybe a couple characters will rise too high too fast and need to be nerfed or banned but aside from that the game as a whole should appear to be healthy to 99% of players no matter what.

If your question is how does the balance hold up for casual play among beginners, like most games, my opinion is "it holds up just fine!" When you're a beginner balance doesn't matter much, because it can be impossible to tell if "imbalances" are caused by your lack of experience with your character or the character itself

But for the nonce, don't worry about balance opinions that would talk about expert play, because I firmly believe that anyone who truly claims to know the answer to your question is full of it! Conditions for someone's data and experiences to be accurate:

* Have to have played a character enough to master it. With so many matchups, that's a lot of plays with one character

* Their matches need to be against other players who have mastered their characters. That means their opponents probably need a lot of plays

* Would need a large variety of opponents who have all mastered at least one character and ideally play different characters. Since there is a small community of hardcore players this is where it gets even more difficult.

* Their analytical ability has to be pretty good. Sometimes even good players can have poor perceptions of balance/imbalance and not fully understand why they win or lose

Not happening for a long time.

Rook96 wrote:
While it can be definitely argued that balance is impossible to predict for a game like BattleCON, I like to refer back to the play test method used. One of the two players would set their attack pair face up. This would allow them to confirm that the player had at least 2 or more options for responding to a situation.


That's a really neat playtesting technique!
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