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Subject: Plan B rss

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Duke Of Lizards
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So, on the forums here and in various card reviews, I've seen a mostly negative to luke-warm reaction to Plan B.




I like that the card is a relatively risk-free way to start advancing an agenda. If I put it into a well-defended remote and start advancing, I can keep agendas tucked into the relative safety of HQ, where they have other cards for company. If the runner runs and accesses, either I score an agenda out of hand (yay!), or if I can't, the runner has spent a click and (hopefully) a bunch of money to get in. Even if he exposes the card and never runs, the advancement tokens become Trick of Light Fodder. With that and the Mushin No Shin combo, I think this could find a home in a number of Jinteki builds, but especially in a shell game where there are a number of remotes that may have advancements on them.

I'm still waiting for my H&P, so I haven't tried it yet. Does anyone have experience with Plan B? Is there a drawback that I'm not seeing?
 
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David Jackman
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The main point of criticism is the same as any other advancable trap - if they dont run it(or infiltrate), it does nothing and you've spent multiple clicks/credits for zero gain.
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Captain Frisk
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Saan wrote:
The main point of criticism is the same as any other advancable trap - if they dont run it(or infiltrate), it does nothing and you've spent multiple clicks/credits for zero gain.


Yep - it basically requires trick of light to make use of it, which then puts you in Jinteki land - where you might have wanted another trap instead

You also need a way it to 3 counters easily (matrix analyzer, mushin no shin).

If you're playing this card outside of Jinteki - then once you've imported Trick of Light to cover the failed trap, you realize you could have spent that same influence on SanSan City grid and gotten much of the same effect and only had to put 3 cards in your deck instead of 6-9.

Hmmm... Matrix Analyzer Plan B Astrotrain!
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Zeb
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This problem is amplified by the fact that you can usually only install-advance-advance in one turn giving you a two-counter Plan B. All that can do is score an agenda that you could have scored out of hand last turn anyway.
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John Fanjoy
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It needs to be at three advancements to do anything. And if it's at three advancements...why aren't you just flatlining them with a Junebug instead? :/

That said, I'm probably still going to try it, because I want to live the dream and score the agenda from a Plan B access while the runner can't trash it, so it's still there as a Trick of Light battery.
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Sam Suied
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polychrotid wrote:

I'm still waiting for my H&P, so I haven't tried it yet. Does anyone have experience with Plan B? Is there a drawback that I'm not seeing?


1 of 3 things will happen with plan B when you play it.

1. they trash it before you can activate it, and any advancement you made was wasted.

2. they hit it when you can activate it, and you score. Note: at this point you could have already scored the agenda the turn before.

3. they see you advance a card to 3-4 (average number needed to score), realize that if it was an agenda you would have scored it, and decide not to run. You have now wasted significant resources on a failed trap.


none of those are particularly good. It will have a use in combination with mushin no shin and trick of the light, but past that it doesn't do much
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Bob Bobberson
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Short answer:

Long answer:

I thought Plan B was garbage too, but then I read this thread on Harmony Medtech:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1164328/deck-harmony-med...

I can't see how Plan B would be playable without Munshin no Shin, but I look forward to trying the Harmony deck in that thread.
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Grish Noren
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Matrix Analyzer make's it playable as well. Advance it twice, let it sit.
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Joshua Ely
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I think maybe use it only late game when you are at 4 points so the runner has to run on a mushin no shin advanced card. I can't see plan b playing a major role in any deck right now.
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Dave Nish
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SamRS wrote:
polychrotid wrote:

I'm still waiting for my H&P, so I haven't tried it yet. Does anyone have experience with Plan B? Is there a drawback that I'm not seeing?


1 of 3 things will happen with plan B when you play it.

1. they trash it before you can activate it, and any advancement you made was wasted.

2. they hit it when you can activate it, and you score. Note: at this point you could have already scored the agenda the turn before.

3. they see you advance a card to 3-4 (average number needed to score), realize that if it was an agenda you would have scored it, and decide not to run. You have now wasted significant resources on a failed trap.


none of those are particularly good. It will have a use in combination with mushin no shin and trick of the light, but past that it doesn't do much


I disagree with your assertment of #3 and think that Jinteki players who 'get it' like Hollis would also agree.

Too many players, both corp and runner, assume that if the runner does not run on the facedown agenda with 3 advancements that it HAS to be scored next turn. Misdirection and trickiness is key to Jinteki.

When you let that assumed trap sit for 2 turns then score it later the runner REMEMBERS that and keeps it in mind for the next time. Weird plays like this are key for Jinteki players to keep the runner constantly second guessing themselves on if they should or shouldn't run on what may very well be an obvious trap or weird double fakeout.

One of my most memorable games as Jinteki PE came from flatlining the runner by scoring 2 agendas and using 2 Neural EMPs all in 1 turn. This would not of been possible if my runner had not been following the assumptions made by #3 or if I had.




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John Thornby
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I'm not a fan of this card. To me is seems like another red herring really.

It just seems too card intensive for my liking and I can't really envisage a result with it that I'd ever actually be happy with. If you get it into play and advance it enough to be useful (i.e. at least 3 most likely) then when they run on it you have to have an agenda in hand to use it - I think this is risky as you'll be seeing a lot of Legwork in the near future and you probably telegraph a run on HQ. Basically, you reduce your risk in the remote but increase your risk in your hand. I'd say these effects probably cancel each other out in the long-term. Even if you do score the agenda, unless it was for the win then in most situations I'd be sitting there wishing that it had been a Junebug or Agg Sec, as these are more likely to give you the game now or solidify your position for the rest of the match.

If they don't run it you're going to wish you'd just played the agenda instead, because now you have to find a ToL to move the counters somewhere else. In other words you've turned scoring an agenda you could have played anyway into a three card combo (four with Mushin No Shin). I don't mind combos if all the cards are individually useful and the combo is a bonus, but most of these do nothing in isolation.
 
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Daine .

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I've played against Plan B quite a few times now, and I have to admit that it's better than I thought it'd be. At worst it's a trick of light battery, something I usually go out of my way to disarm if I can (install Deus X, purposely ram an advanced junebug). Then there's a trash cost to boot.

I'm not sure what kind of net damage Jinteki the above commenters are playing against, but running legwork against a PE deck is generally suicide. HQ isn't necessarily safe, but multi access is generally a bad move (especially in HQ), so I agree that an agenda is probably safer in HQ than in a remote.

The best play in the absence of mushin no shin is to install it on one turn and then triple advance it the next, not IAA.
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Bob Bobberson
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xenakis wrote:
I'm not a fan of this card. To me is seems like another red herring really.

It just seems too card intensive for my liking and I can't really envisage a result with it that I'd ever actually be happy with. If you get it into play and advance it enough to be useful (i.e. at least 3 most likely) then when they run on it you have to have an agenda in hand to use it - I think this is risky as you'll be seeing a lot of Legwork in the near future and you probably telegraph a run on HQ. Basically, you reduce your risk in the remote but increase your risk in your hand. I'd say these effects probably cancel each other out in the long-term. Even if you do score the agenda, unless it was for the win then in most situations I'd be sitting there wishing that it had been a Junebug or Agg Sec, as these are more likely to give you the game now or solidify your position for the rest of the match.

If they don't run it you're going to wish you'd just played the agenda instead, because now you have to find a ToL to move the counters somewhere else. In other words you've turned scoring an agenda you could have played anyway into a three card combo (four with Mushin No Shin). I don't mind combos if all the cards are individually useful and the combo is a bonus, but most of these do nothing in isolation.

In Harmony with Munshin I've found it to be a great ToL battery and bluff enabler (as long as the runner doesn't have expose). If they bite on one and you score something out of hand, the next card you Munshin may be a Future Perfect.
 
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Brian H
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Daine wrote:

The best play in the absence of mushin no shin is to install it on one turn and then triple advance it the next, not IAA.


As a runner, that would seem like an obvious trap. Either that or Ronin, in which case I guess you would still have to go in there and trash it.

I think usually people install and single-advance a Ronin, though.
 
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Zeb
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It's not even playable without Mushin no Shin or maybe Matrix Analyser. Definitely the weakest advanceable ambush, but I do like the design space it explores.
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Aaron Schneider
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The correct way to play this is to put Toshiyuki Sakai behind 3 Matrix Analyzers. When they run the server you advance Toshi, swap him for Plan B, and then swap Plan B for your agenda.

This card would be totally broken if it wasn't hard countered by Exploratory Romp!
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Aaron Schneider
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On a more serious note, a big advantage it has over other ambushes is that it costs 0 to activate. A common counter to Jinteki ambush mindgames is to Siphon or Vamp the corp to 0 and then run on everything freely (ghost branch is typically not worth worrying about). Now there's a reason to think twice even if the corp is broke, which is a good thing.
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Ruan Hallen
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While I need to get some more playtime in with my Doctor deck (which was linked above), I can tell you that Plan B has performed very admirably in pretty much all games with that deck. That said, I cannot speak for the success of Plan B outside of that deck, or with other factions.

The reason why Plan B works well in that deck is as follows:

1) The deck, and Harmony Medtech in general, gets to match point fairly quickly.

2) It incorporates Mushin no Shin and Trick of Light. Without those cards, Plan B cannot truly shine.

3) It has a 2 advance/score agenda (Clone Retirement).

I believe most players can agree that traps get the most dangerous at match point, especially if the corp has a little bit of leeway. Medtech gets to match point fairly quick.

As was already mentioned, Mushin no Shin and Trick of Light are what can really make this card (and obviously other traps) shine. But what makes Plan B really shine?

You can't run on it to disarm it unless it has 1 or less counters on it, and (as noted above) you can't prevent the corp from using it by sapping credits. Worse comes to worse, the corp can score a 2/1 like Clone Retirement off it. Otherwise, you risk feeding the corporation full 3/1 3/2+ agendas, no questions asked. And, of course, if they lack the means to expose the card (or you have Zaibatsu) you can plop down an agenda instead with no one the wiser, especially early game. I have no problem Mushin no Shin-ing a Profiteering out by itself if I think the runner is too scared to run it.

Ironically the only ways to safely disarm a Plan B is Singularity and Exploratory Romp... both of which I rarely see played.

---

Anyways, I know I have had success with Plan B in my Doctor deck, but the deck is pretty much tailor made to capitalize on utilizing it in the best possible way I have found.

I'm by no means saying it's the best thing ever and should be used everywhere, but it is worth thinking about if you really focus on making it a viable part of your deck.
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Grish Noren
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It's a great card in NBN-TOL. Astroscript can pump it after access has been decided to score an agenda out of hand. If they don't run it, then hey, it's a battery. Matrix Analyzer also goes really well with it, like really well, and as has been mentioned Mushin No Shin is good too.
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Clyde W
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MavericK96 wrote:
Daine wrote:

The best play in the absence of mushin no shin is to install it on one turn and then triple advance it the next, not IAA.


As a runner, that would seem like an obvious trap. Either that or Ronin, in which case I guess you would still have to go in there and trash it.

I think usually people install and single-advance a Ronin, though.
Cool, so install an agenda instead face down and advance that three times first. The trick of anything in Jinteki is to make certain the runner can never determine what you're doing.
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MavericK96 wrote:
I think usually people install and single-advance a Ronin, though.


Ronin needs a double advance because there's a click cost on the trash effect.
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Brian H
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gumOnShoe wrote:
MavericK96 wrote:
I think usually people install and single-advance a Ronin, though.


Ronin needs a double advance because there's a click cost on the trash effect.


Yeah, that's true. Though if you double-advance it makes it seem more like an agenda or something that the runner is going to want to run anyway.
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MavericK96 wrote:
gumOnShoe wrote:
MavericK96 wrote:
I think usually people install and single-advance a Ronin, though.


Ronin needs a double advance because there's a click cost on the trash effect.


Yeah, that's true. Though if you double-advance it makes it seem more like an agenda or something that the runner is going to want to run anyway.


A single advance to me usually implies Nisei. Now a 3 point agenda can cause a lot of damage to me as a runner, but not nearly as much as Nisei can, and eventually, unless you're using TOL, you're going to have to push it up and Ronin is the only thing you're going to do that with. I guess NAPD might disuade some people from running it if they're low on cash, but still...
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Daniel Wray
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I thought about Plan B in my PE Ronin kill-deck. Mushin is going to make that deck very ugly and I evaluated the run-or-not-run value of dropping down a Plan B. I like cards that discourage being run on even if they are exposed (saves my investment for TOL) Scoring an agenda with it would be great, but it's contingent on having the agenda ready. Ultimately my deck will have a mix of:

Ronins - for the kill
Cerebral Overwriter- to enable the kill/TOL battery
Junebug - for their own kill/TOL battery

Scoring agendas is nice, but it's a secondary win for my deck. Getting Install-Advance-Advance (IAA) of dangerous traps, or Mushin-Advance for an even more dangerous card enables setting up the double Ronin kill.

Plan B doesn't support that for me, but I certainly see it's possibilities in some FA plan using TOL. You either score my agenda for me, or I get to keep it until I am ready to TOL off it.
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Aside: Missed it, but what's IAA stand for?
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