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Subject: Botched execution in Oklahoma rss

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Snowball
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I am against death penalty by principle. But sometimes principles have to yield to common sense.
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Robert Sell
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I'm all for the death penalty. The persons sentence was death, and in that we as a civilized society owe the convicted a non-sensational death.
Do mistakes happen? Yes, someone needs to find the fault with the process, and correct that. I think those using this as a platform trying to change death sentencing will have a tough time finding traction in mainstream society. However I can see the necessity after botched executions to re-evaluate the processes involved.
 
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Dave G
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My objection to the death penalty has more to do with the astounding number of death row inmates who are exonerated by new evidence or exposing bad police work. I don't think the state has any business killing innocent people, and I think if the state can't figure out a way to make sure they're not killing innocents they shouldn't kill anyone. Then again, in the past I've also said that a second DUI should carry a death sentence, so maybe I'm a little scattered on the subject.

As for this case, I'm with you on not feeling all that sympathetic to the victim in terms of comparing what happened to him with what he did. I have a hard time not feeling some sympathy for him simply as a human, though. If we're going to kill people, kill people, but state-administered torture seems pretty fucking barbaric. That doesn't excuse his crimes, that doesn't mean I think he should have been rehabilitated and given a job sweeping floors at a church, just that I think it's pretty terrible that the state can't even manage to kill a man properly.

That said, I think a lot of the problem is the bullshit that surrounds the death penalty as it is. We go to all these lengths to pretend that there's some kindness or dignity to the process, but we're fucking killing someone. Dispense with the big show and the families watching and all that nonsense. Take the prisoner to the yard, shoot him twice in the head at close range, and be done with it. I'm not any more in favor of that than I am the regular death penalty, but for fuck's sake let's stop with the pageantry about it. All these lengths we go to for a "comfortable" death are ridiculous.

The one aspect of this story I found truly disturbing was the stories about the prison system trying to keep the method of execution secret, buying execution drugs off the books and what not so that lawyers can't argue that the means is cruel and unusual. That's just embarrassing for a first-world country. If we're going to be a culture that kills people for their crimes, let's just fucking do it. You can't dress it up into something nice and genteel, it's a fucking killing.
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David Dearlove
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
My objection to the death penalty has more to do with the astounding number of death row inmates who are exonerated by new evidence or exposing bad police work. I don't think the state has any business killing innocent people, and I think if the state can't figure out a way to make sure they're not killing innocents they shouldn't kill anyone. Then again, in the past I've also said that a second DUI should carry a death sentence, so maybe I'm a little scattered on the subject.

As for this case, I'm with you on not feeling all that sympathetic to the victim in terms of comparing what happened to him with what he did. I have a hard time not feeling some sympathy for him simply as a human, though. If we're going to kill people, kill people, but state-administered torture seems pretty fucking barbaric. That doesn't excuse his crimes, that doesn't mean I think he should have been rehabilitated and given a job sweeping floors at a church, just that I think it's pretty terrible that the state can't even manage to kill a man properly.

That said, I think a lot of the problem is the bullshit that surrounds the death penalty as it is. We go to all these lengths to pretend that there's some kindness or dignity to the process, but we're fucking killing someone. Dispense with the big show and the families watching and all that nonsense. Take the prisoner to the yard, shoot him twice in the head at close range, and be done with it. I'm not any more in favor of that than I am the regular death penalty, but for fuck's sake let's stop with the pageantry about it. All these lengths we go to for a "comfortable" death are ridiculous.

The one aspect of this story I found truly disturbing was the stories about the prison system trying to keep the method of execution secret, buying execution drugs off the books and what not so that lawyers can't argue that the means is cruel and unusual. That's just embarrassing for a first-world country. If we're going to be a culture that kills people for their crimes, let's just fucking do it. You can't dress it up into something nice and genteel, it's a fucking killing.

You Americans are right up there with Iran and China with your killing people.
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Dave G
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DavidDearlove wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
My objection to the death penalty has more to do with the astounding number of death row inmates who are exonerated by new evidence or exposing bad police work. I don't think the state has any business killing innocent people, and I think if the state can't figure out a way to make sure they're not killing innocents they shouldn't kill anyone. Then again, in the past I've also said that a second DUI should carry a death sentence, so maybe I'm a little scattered on the subject.

As for this case, I'm with you on not feeling all that sympathetic to the victim in terms of comparing what happened to him with what he did. I have a hard time not feeling some sympathy for him simply as a human, though. If we're going to kill people, kill people, but state-administered torture seems pretty fucking barbaric. That doesn't excuse his crimes, that doesn't mean I think he should have been rehabilitated and given a job sweeping floors at a church, just that I think it's pretty terrible that the state can't even manage to kill a man properly.

That said, I think a lot of the problem is the bullshit that surrounds the death penalty as it is. We go to all these lengths to pretend that there's some kindness or dignity to the process, but we're fucking killing someone. Dispense with the big show and the families watching and all that nonsense. Take the prisoner to the yard, shoot him twice in the head at close range, and be done with it. I'm not any more in favor of that than I am the regular death penalty, but for fuck's sake let's stop with the pageantry about it. All these lengths we go to for a "comfortable" death are ridiculous.

The one aspect of this story I found truly disturbing was the stories about the prison system trying to keep the method of execution secret, buying execution drugs off the books and what not so that lawyers can't argue that the means is cruel and unusual. That's just embarrassing for a first-world country. If we're going to be a culture that kills people for their crimes, let's just fucking do it. You can't dress it up into something nice and genteel, it's a fucking killing.

You Americans are right up there with Iran and China with your killing people.


Like I said, I'm not in favor generally speaking, at least not in our extremely flawed judicial system. But if we're going to do it, just do it. Don't try to pretend it's something better than what it is.
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CHAPEL
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Execution for the guilty...I'm all for.

Executions for the innocent...Totally against.

Do that, and I am all for nasty painfully botched executions. Now do that without 5% proven innocent mistakes and we are golden.
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Damian
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I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. He still got off easy.

However, that doesn't mean the state should be in the business of killing people. Conservatives, especially, should be agitating against the death penalty.
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Chris R.
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Quote:
You Americans are right up there with Iran and China with your killing people.


And sometimes murderers are not executed.

Anders Behring Breivik -- Killed 77, Injured 319

Punishment -- 21 years, 3 months per murder?

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Damian
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sikeospi wrote:
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You Americans are right up there with Iran and China with your killing people.


And sometimes murderers are not executed.

Anders Behring Breivik -- Killed 77, Injured 319

Punishment -- 21 years, 3 months per murder?

His sentence can (and will) be extended indefinitely.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
My objection to the death penalty has more to do with the astounding number of death row inmates who are exonerated by new evidence or exposing bad police work. I don't think the state has any business killing innocent people, and I think if the state can't figure out a way to make sure they're not killing innocents they shouldn't kill anyone. Then again, in the past I've also said that a second DUI should carry a death sentence, so maybe I'm a little scattered on the subject.

As for this case, I'm with you on not feeling all that sympathetic to the victim in terms of comparing what happened to him with what he did. I have a hard time not feeling some sympathy for him simply as a human, though. If we're going to kill people, kill people, but state-administered torture seems pretty fucking barbaric. That doesn't excuse his crimes, that doesn't mean I think he should have been rehabilitated and given a job sweeping floors at a church, just that I think it's pretty terrible that the state can't even manage to kill a man properly.

That said, I think a lot of the problem is the bullshit that surrounds the death penalty as it is. We go to all these lengths to pretend that there's some kindness or dignity to the process, but we're fucking killing someone. Dispense with the big show and the families watching and all that nonsense. Take the prisoner to the yard, shoot him twice in the head at close range, and be done with it. I'm not any more in favor of that than I am the regular death penalty, but for fuck's sake let's stop with the pageantry about it. All these lengths we go to for a "comfortable" death are ridiculous.

The one aspect of this story I found truly disturbing was the stories about the prison system trying to keep the method of execution secret, buying execution drugs off the books and what not so that lawyers can't argue that the means is cruel and unusual. That's just embarrassing for a first-world country. If we're going to be a culture that kills people for their crimes, let's just fucking do it. You can't dress it up into something nice and genteel, it's a fucking killing.


Why waste the second shot? Get a brick of .22LR from your local Walmart, one shot behind the ear and if they flop around like a fish and bleed out, so be it.

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Seth Iniguez
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
That's just embarrassing for a first-world country.


Actually, I think still practicing the death penalty is embarrassing for a first-world country.

It is more expensive then life in prison, it is not a deterrent, and it makes us look like barbarians to the rest of the western world.

Not to mention the uneven application (favoring killing minorities), and the many times that we have "oops, wrong person, I guess they were innocent, my bad."
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bjlillo wrote:
After reading that, I have a hard time feeling any sort of sympathy for the murderer that the state made uncomfortable for 45 minutes before he ultimately died. What do you think?

Does the state killing people contradict neither your libertarian nor your Christian/pro-life ideals?
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Sutehk wrote:
It is more expensive then life in prison, it is not a deterrent, and it makes us look like barbarians to the rest of the western world.


Given that opinion polls are frequently split/in favour I don't think you need to worry about the last part.

The first and second are manifestations of the same problem- the American legal system is very inefficient.
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Simon Mueller wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
After reading that, I have a hard time feeling any sort of sympathy for the murderer that the state made uncomfortable for 45 minutes before he ultimately died. What do you think?

Does the state killing people contradict neither your libertarian nor your Christian/pro-life ideals?


There's no reason it should contradict the first. Libertarians do not like coercion, but they recognise that paradoxically it is required to prevent others coercing people to do their will; if it comes to it, violence must be used to prevent violence.

The role of the state as provider of impartial arbitration, protection of property rights and contract enforcement is one of the few areas most American libertarians agree on.

That the state should not take lives is a position entirely at odds with this view; a state which refuses to take lives is one which would roll over to whichever neighbour intended to take over. Similarly it is necessary sometimes for law enforcement agents to take lives to prevent greater violence. Following on from this, punishment should be meted out for crimes committed and the state is already granted the ability to take lives. There is nothing stopping capital punishment in the Libertarian worldview; that's entirely down to the morality of the people.
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Richard Hefferan
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Sutehk wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
That's just embarrassing for a first-world country.


Actually, I think still practicing the death penalty is embarrassing for a first-world country.

It is more expensive then life in prison, it is not a deterrent, and it makes us look like barbarians to the rest of the western world.

Not to mention the uneven application (favoring killing minorities), and the many times that we have "oops, wrong person, I guess they were innocent, my bad."


It is not more expensive than life in prison. The accounting on that commonly cited opinion is dishonest.

It is a deterrent. The problem is that the level of deterrence decreases as social status decreases. To say it is simply not, however, is absurd.

Most other countries have less individual liberty. Some of the limits on speech I have read about in Western Europe would seem tyrannical to most Americans. Laws in Muslim countries are often ridiculous. Our values being contrary to their laws rarely influences them. Why would we entertain the notion that the reverse should be valid?

The death penalty is the most efficient and humane exercise of justice when dealing with heinous criminal acts. It is imperfect, but crime isn't going to cease until we improve the systems. Atrocious crime will still demand justice.
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Simon Mueller wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
After reading that, I have a hard time feeling any sort of sympathy for the murderer that the state made uncomfortable for 45 minutes before he ultimately died. What do you think?

Does the state killing people contradict neither your libertarian nor your Christian/pro-life ideals?
its a full birth abortion
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Seth Iniguez
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Shushnik wrote:
Sutehk wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
That's just embarrassing for a first-world country.


Actually, I think still practicing the death penalty is embarrassing for a first-world country.

It is more expensive then life in prison, it is not a deterrent, and it makes us look like barbarians to the rest of the western world.

Not to mention the uneven application (favoring killing minorities), and the many times that we have "oops, wrong person, I guess they were innocent, my bad."


It is not more expensive than life in prison. The accounting on that commonly cited opinion is dishonest.

It is a deterrent. The problem is that the level of deterrence decreases as social status decreases. To say it is simply not, however, is absurd.

Most other countries have less individual liberty. Some of the limits on speech I have read about in Western Europe would seem tyrannical to most Americans. Laws in Muslim countries are often ridiculous. Our values being contrary to their laws rarely influences them. Why would we entertain the notion that the reverse should be valid?

The death penalty is the most efficient and humane exercise of justice when dealing with heinous criminal acts. It is imperfect, but crime isn't going to cease until we improve the systems. Atrocious crime will still demand justice.


You sure about the cost? I'd love a citation. This is the first article that I found that wasn't on an anti-death penalty website.

Quote:
After decades of moral arguments reaching biblical proportions, after long, twisted journeys to the nation's highest court and back, the death penalty may be abandoned by several states for a reason having nothing to do with right or wrong:

Money.

Turns out, it is cheaper to imprison killers for life than to execute them, according to a series of recent surveys. Tens of millions of dollars cheaper, politicians are learning, during a tumbling recession when nearly every state faces job cuts and massive deficits.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_cour...

Deterrence? Citation please.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/04/30/t...
Quote:
By contrast, the question of whether executions discourage criminals from violent acts is not up to the conscience to decide. Despite extensive research on the question, criminologists have been unable to assemble a strong case that capital punishment deters crime.

"We're very hard pressed to find really strong evidence of deterrence," said Columbia Law School's Jeffrey Fagan.


As to "world opinion", I guess it is a matter of personal preference if you care what the rest of the world thinks about your country. I do.


A map showing country votes on the 2008 UN death penalty moratorium.
Green In favour (106)
Red Against (46)
Yellow Abstained (34)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment#Internationa...
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Clay
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Sutehk wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
That's just embarrassing for a first-world country.


Actually, I think still practicing the death penalty is embarrassing for a first-world country.

It is more expensive then life in prison, it is not a deterrent, and it makes us look like barbarians to the rest of the western world.

Not to mention the uneven application (favoring killing minorities), and the many times that we have "oops, wrong person, I guess they were innocent, my bad."


The whole "bullet to the head" method previously mentioned is pretty cheap.

On the topic, I don't usually have a problem with the death penalty. I definitely agree that the process could be streamlined though, which really comes down to what we're trying to accomplish with it. If we're just disposing of a problem then we should find ways to do it cheaper and faster. If we're trying to implement it as the "ultimate punishment" then we aren't really thinking it through, life is prison is almost certainly going to be worse than an early demise. The current model seems to straddle the line between these extremes, which is probably a bad thing.
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CaffeineBot wrote:
Simon Mueller wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
After reading that, I have a hard time feeling any sort of sympathy for the murderer that the state made uncomfortable for 45 minutes before he ultimately died. What do you think?

Does the state killing people contradict neither your libertarian nor your Christian/pro-life ideals?


There's no reason it should contradict the first. Libertarians do not like coercion, but they recognise that paradoxically it is required to prevent others coercing people to do their will; if it comes to it, violence must be used to prevent violence.

There absolutely is. One argument is that the death penalty is irreversible yet the process arriving at its use is highly fallible. The greater the power the State has, the greater justification for said power is needed. The death penalty has not been shown to reduce crime, it is more expensive than life imprisonment, it is very unevenly applied and has been sentenced in error on a great many occasions. Its only purpose is as vengeance, and has no place in a civilized and free society. The State simply cannot justify having that power.

You can't simultaneously believe that governments are ultimately corrupt and incompetent while believing they should have the power to kill.
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I find it sad that people who bemoan taxation cheer capital punishment. But then, that's to be expected...
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The Message wrote:
Sutehk wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
That's just embarrassing for a first-world country.


Actually, I think still practicing the death penalty is embarrassing for a first-world country.

It is more expensive then life in prison, it is not a deterrent, and it makes us look like barbarians to the rest of the western world.

Not to mention the uneven application (favoring killing minorities), and the many times that we have "oops, wrong person, I guess they were innocent, my bad."


The whole "bullet to the head" method previously mentioned is pretty cheap.

On the topic, I don't usually have a problem with the death penalty. I definitely agree that the process could be streamlined though, which really comes down to what we're trying to accomplish with it. If we're just disposing of a problem then we should find ways to do it cheaper and faster. If we're trying to implement it as the "ultimate punishment" then we aren't really thinking it through, life is prison is almost certainly going to be worse than an early demise. The current model seems to straddle the line between these extremes, which is probably a bad thing.


The execution itself is not the expensive part.
Proving irreversible guilt can't be cheap.
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Seth Iniguez
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The Message wrote:
The whole "bullet to the head" method previously mentioned is pretty cheap.


Most of the cost is legal, because of mandatory appeals. You could argue that the additional legal scrutiny isn't necessary, but I think that the fact that we execute innocent people suggests otherwise.

Quote:
More than 4 percent of inmates sentenced to death in the United States are probably innocent, according to a study published Monday that sent shock waves across the anti-death penalty community.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/28/innocent-death-pena...

Quote:
Eighteen people have been proven innocent and exonerated by DNA testing in the United States after serving time on death row. They were convicted in 11 states and served a combined 229 years in prison – including 202 years on death row – for crimes they didn’t commit.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/The_Innocent_and_the...
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CaffeineBot wrote:
There's no reason it should contradict the first. Libertarians do not like coercion, but they recognise that paradoxically it is required to prevent others coercing people to do their will; if it comes to it, violence must be used to prevent violence.

You don't need violence to prevent violence: The guy is already locked away. I understand the need for self-defence, lethal even, but killing him now, after he is no longer a threat is just unnecessary, totalitarian, barbaric and only serves to satisfy an urge for revenge.

Similarly in the militaristic sense: the threat of retribution prevents violence. Which is why the world powers haven't fought each other directly since the invention of nuclear weapons and the rise of global economies. It doesn't work that way in preventing individual crime though; psychologically, fear of punishment is one of the least concerns for someone committing a crime.

But it doesn't surprise me that libertarians would defend a "might makes right" mentality. It's what the ideology comes down to in the end, when all "justice" is derived from property rights.
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DavidDearlove wrote:

You Americans are right up there with Iran and China with your killing people.


Now that is just a load of malarkey. We don't kill people for political or religious non-conformity. We don't even kill people for crimes in general. We only kill people who have had a trial and been found guilty of killing, on purpose and with premeditation other people. USUALLY more than one person and/or in a cruel fashion.

Now you can be for or against the death penalty overall... but comparing us to Iran and China is an obnoxious and excessive statement.

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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You Americans are right up there with Iran and China with your killing people.


And sometimes murderers are not executed.

Anders Behring Breivik -- Killed 77, Injured 319

Punishment -- 21 years, 3 months per murder?

His sentence can (and will) be extended indefinitely.


Always handy to have "do-over governments" that change things afterwards...
 
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