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Subject: Components not fully fit for purpose. Sleeving essential. rss

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Mark Turner
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It is unfortunate that the components for this game, which at first look very nicely done, turn out not to be fully adequate.

One single tiny mark spoils the game, and the white backing on the cards means that happens very easily. If even one card is identifiable, the game does not work.

As a result, sleeving is an absolute requirement. The game should either include sleeves, or issue a large warning on the box that sleeves must be purchased if the game is to have any longevity.

Unfortunately, at present, there aren't sleeves designed for these cards! After discovering a small blue dot on one of my cards, which - no hyperbole - rendered the game effectively unplayable - I used some black backed 'small card' ultra pros to mask them.

They don't fit that well, but do the job. Unfortunately, they somewhat negate the point of having those pretty chits. Might as well use normal cards and save the money!

I do wish manufacturers found a proper solution to the hidden role card problem. With such a popular mechanic, sleeves are currently the only solution. In one game I own - Vampire Empire - sleeves were included. All such games should do the same thing.
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Caitlin
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Re: This too must be sleeved.
This is the designer's suggestion:

Card Sleeves for One Night Ultimate Werewolf cards
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Xenothon Stelnicki
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Re: This too must be sleeved.
nolemonplease wrote:
This is the designer's suggestion:

Card Sleeves for One Night Ultimate Werewolf cards


Me, too. An absolute necessity.
 
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Mark Turner
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Re: This too must be sleeved.
For me, any trimming is also problematic, as it leads to inconsistencies.

The small sized black backed ultra-pros I used aren't perfect, but they are ok. The game was already marked for me by a tiny blue dot on the corner of the robber... I tried to remove it, but it left a tiny impression.

Trouble is, even a tiny impression is game ending... We have a remarkable capacity to pick up on these things! In retrospect, for this price, I think it makes more sense to print multiple copies of the roles on plastic cards. These chits are lovely, but too easily ruined.
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MrMT wrote:
For me, any trimming is also problematic, as it leads to inconsistencies.

The small sized black backed ultra-pros I used aren't perfect, but they are ok. The game was already marked for me by a tiny blue dot on the corner of the robber... I tried to remove it, but it left a tiny impression.

Trouble is, even a tiny impression is game ending... We have a remarkable capacity to pick up on these things! In retrospect, for this price, I think it makes more sense to print multiple copies of the roles on plastic cards. These chits are lovely, but too easily ruined.


If you need a replacement for single tiles you can buy them at Bezier Games: http://www.beziergames.com/retiforoneni.html

I use the FFG sleeves without trimming. This also works fine.
 
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Mark Turner
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ZdadrDeM wrote:


If you need a replacement for single tiles you can buy them at Bezier Game: http://www.beziergames.com/retiforoneni.html

I use the FFG sleeves without trimming. This also works fine.


Ah - nice link. Unfortunately they charge $11.30 shipping to the uk for a $4 tile.

I really don't understand why manufacturers can't make more mark resistant chits for these games.

Anonymity is everything... There must be a better solution than easily marked white backed tokens.

We have generations of playing card design to address this very issue.
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Alex Eding
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Agreed. The cards have that finish that starts to show wear pretty early if you shuffle them too much.

I use the FFG Green size and trimmed them with a ruler and an exacto knife. Seems to work well so far.

Such a bummer that they wear so fast! The "Good News" is the game is cheap on OLGS sites so when one gets into bad shape I can pick up a new one. I know that's not the point of this thread, but it is an option.
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Mr. E
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Anyone have any suggestions on the below issue I unfortunately came across:

Just got this today, went to punch out the cards, ever so carefully, and of course one of them got caught and now on the back of the card I can see a small slight tear at the top (Insomniac). I had my sleeves ready to put on them but now I have no clue how to remedy this situation.

I thought of trying to mark all the cards somehow in this spot on the back of the sleeve but have no clue what to use or what to put on there.

I got this game for my non-gaming family and chances are they won't even notice but unfortunately my OCD won't ever let me forget it.

Thanks for any suggestions!!!
 
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Mark Turner
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ED_209 wrote:
Anyone have any suggestions on the below issue I unfortunately came across:

Just got this today, went to punch out the cards, ever so carefully, and of course one of them got caught and now on the back of the card I can see a small slight tear at the top (Insomniac). I had my sleeves ready to put on them but now I have no clue how to remedy this situation.

I thought of trying to mark all the cards somehow in this spot on the back of the sleeve but have no clue what to use or what to put on there.

I got this game for my non-gaming family and chances are they won't even notice but unfortunately my OCD won't ever let me forget it.

Thanks for any suggestions!!!


Sleeves with opaque backs is the answer.
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MrMT wrote:
ED_209 wrote:
Anyone have any suggestions on the below issue I unfortunately came across:

Just got this today, went to punch out the cards, ever so carefully, and of course one of them got caught and now on the back of the card I can see a small slight tear at the top (Insomniac). I had my sleeves ready to put on them but now I have no clue how to remedy this situation.

I thought of trying to mark all the cards somehow in this spot on the back of the sleeve but have no clue what to use or what to put on there.

I got this game for my non-gaming family and chances are they won't even notice but unfortunately my OCD won't ever let me forget it.

Thanks for any suggestions!!!


Sleeves with opaque backs is the answer.
Or cut some card stock, and slide it into your existing sleeves.
 
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Mr. E
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Thanks for the amazingly fast replies and suggestions.

Off to see if Fantasy Flight has these same size sleeves in opaque backing.

I do have some card stock but not sure if I could squeeze them in since it's such a tight fit.

Again, I really appreciate the help everyone!!!
 
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David Gittins
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ED_209 wrote:

Just got this today, went to punch out the cards, ever so carefully, and of course one of them got caught and now on the back of the card I can see a small slight tear at the top (Insomniac). I had my sleeves ready to put on them but now I have no clue how to remedy this situation.


Try Contacting Bezier Games see if they can replace the card for you.

Edit: You shouldn`t have to buy one either .... I have had tiles sent out for free from other publishers when a tile has ripped Due to the tile not seperating and tearing when punching it out carefully.
 
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Mark Turner
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DiscoBiskit wrote:
ED_209 wrote:

Just got this today, went to punch out the cards, ever so carefully, and of course one of them got caught and now on the back of the card I can see a small slight tear at the top (Insomniac). I had my sleeves ready to put on them but now I have no clue how to remedy this situation.


Try Contacting Bezier Games see if they can replace the card for you.

Edit: You shouldn`t have to buy one either .... I have had tiles sent out for free from other publishers when a tile has ripped Due to the tile not seperating and tearing when punching it out carefully.


Yes, the company is friendly and responsive. I have no complaints there at all. Also, it's a good game. And the app is great. I want it to do well!

But I really have to ask again - what will it take for companies with games that rely on anonymous cards/chits etc to provide cards/chits that actually stay anonymous? I realise it's not the easiest, that manufacturing uniformity is tricky, but it's not as if this has never been done before. Scrabble has been doing it for years. There is a solution here.

It stuns me that companies time and time again overlook this core cannot-do-without entire-purpose-of-their-existence feature of their components.

It is the fundamental reason for them to exist: to indicate a role to a player, but keep it anonymous. There is a secondary function - to look nice, and these cards do this well - but the chits could be hand-painted Picasso originals and still be worthless for the purposes of this game if they cannot maintain role anonymity.

Here, once more, we have a nicely designed and illustrated game which should do well, but appears to overlook this essential feature. As soon as anonymity is lost, the chits become unfit for playing the game with.

I sympathise with the company, as it is hard to make money off an idea alone - which, essentially, is what ONUW is doing. They need to make the money through the added value of the set itself - which, in this case, is ALL about the chits. And the chits are simply not adequate.

It is as though Apple put out a new iphone which lost the ability to connect to the internet after the first time you used it.

I would love to hear suggested solutions to this, but in the meantime, sleeving in opaque backed plastic does the job.

All of which begs the question: why don't they include plastic sleeves in the first place?!

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Charlie Theel
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MrMT wrote:
DiscoBiskit wrote:
ED_209 wrote:

Just got this today, went to punch out the cards, ever so carefully, and of course one of them got caught and now on the back of the card I can see a small slight tear at the top (Insomniac). I had my sleeves ready to put on them but now I have no clue how to remedy this situation.


Try Contacting Bezier Games see if they can replace the card for you.

Edit: You shouldn`t have to buy one either .... I have had tiles sent out for free from other publishers when a tile has ripped Due to the tile not seperating and tearing when punching it out carefully.


Yes, the company is friendly and responsive. I have no complaints there at all. Also, it's a good game. And the app is great. I want it to do well!

But I really have to ask again - what will it take for companies with games that rely on anonymous cards/chits etc to provide cards/chits that actually stay anonymous? I realise it's not the easiest, that manufacturing uniformity is tricky, but it's not as if this has never been done before. Scrabble has been doing it for years. There is a solution here.

It stuns me that companies time and time again overlook this core cannot-do-without entire-purpose-of-their-existence feature of their components.

It is the fundamental reason for them to exist: to indicate a role to a player, but keep it anonymous. There is a secondary function - to look nice, and these cards do this well - but the chits could be hand-painted Picasso originals and still be worthless for the purposes of this game if they cannot maintain role anonymity.

Here, once more, we have a nicely designed and illustrated game which should do well, but appears to overlook this essential feature. As soon as anonymity is lost, the chits become unfit for playing the game with.

I sympathise with the company, as it is hard to make money off an idea alone - which, essentially, is what ONUW is doing. They need to make the money through the added value of the set itself - which, in this case, is ALL about the chits. And the chits are simply not adequate.

It is as though Apple put out a new iphone which lost the ability to connect to the internet after the first time you used it.

I would love to hear suggested solutions to this, but in the meantime, sleeving in opaque backed plastic does the job.

All of which begs the question: why don't they include plastic sleeves in the first place?!



I think it's much more difficult than you realize. Look at your scrabble tiles and now imagine them blown up to several times the size. The wood grain would clearly give away which tile is which.

No matter what material you use it will not be perfect. So you may as well make the game affordable.

Eventually, we will see these games be completely electronic with cross platform apps so it sends your card to your phone randomly. That will be the only true way to make it work.
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Mark Turner
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charlest wrote:

I think it's much more difficult than you realize.


Putting on black backed sleeves worth a couple of cents each solves the problem... is that so difficult?
 
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Charlie Theel
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MrMT wrote:
charlest wrote:

I think it's much more difficult than you realize.


Putting on black backed sleeves worth a couple of cents each solves the problem... is that so difficult?


You're assuming the Chinese factory that produces the game also manufacture's sleeves, particularly the same size. The machines that create sleeves and the process that goes into it is a specialty of sorts.

Many people still don't want to sleeve this game or other games like it, so there's also that.
 
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charlest wrote:
MrMT wrote:
charlest wrote:

I think it's much more difficult than you realize.


Putting on black backed sleeves worth a couple of cents each solves the problem... is that so difficult?


You're assuming the Chinese factory that produces the game also manufacture's sleeves, particularly the same size. The machines that create sleeves and the process that goes into it is a specialty of sorts.

Many people still don't want to sleeve this game or other games like it, so there's also that.


Yes sleeve making is a speciality, and people are reluctant to sleeve.

But what I am suggesting here is there are solutions within reasonable reach.

My scrabble tiles are plastic, and I can't tell which is which from the wood grain, as they don't have wood grain.

Same goes for a bunch of games I had in the 80s... I really loved a game I had called 'generals', for example, in which anonymity of the pieces was crucial. They were plastic and worked fine.
 
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MrMT wrote:
charlest wrote:
MrMT wrote:
charlest wrote:

I think it's much more difficult than you realize.


Putting on black backed sleeves worth a couple of cents each solves the problem... is that so difficult?


You're assuming the Chinese factory that produces the game also manufacture's sleeves, particularly the same size. The machines that create sleeves and the process that goes into it is a specialty of sorts.

Many people still don't want to sleeve this game or other games like it, so there's also that.


Yes sleeve making is a speciality, and people are reluctant to sleeve.

But what I am suggesting here is there are solutions within reasonable reach.

My scrabble tiles are plastic, and I can't tell which is which from the wood grain, as they don't have wood grain.

Same goes for a bunch of games I had in the 80s... I really loved a game I had called 'generals', for example, in which anonymity of the pieces was crucial. They were plastic and worked fine.


With small pieces that are numerous, plastic works fine. If you made plastic cards this size, they would gain scratches and scuffs from being handled. They would then be easily distinguishable.
 
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Robert Stewart
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Scrabble tiles don't need to be that anonymous either - they get picked from an opaque bag, and stored on an opaque rack, so very little of the tile is visible while it's anonymous...
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Mark Turner
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rmsgrey wrote:
Scrabble tiles don't need to be that anonymous either - they get picked from an opaque bag, and stored on an opaque rack, so very little of the tile is visible while it's anonymous...


Ok, then. How about Stratego?
 
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charlest wrote:
MrMT wrote:
charlest wrote:

I think it's much more difficult than you realize.


Putting on black backed sleeves worth a couple of cents each solves the problem... is that so difficult?


You're assuming the Chinese factory that produces the game also manufacture's sleeves, particularly the same size. The machines that create sleeves and the process that goes into it is a specialty of sorts.

Many people still don't want to sleeve this game or other games like it, so there's also that.
The other issue with sleeves is that then card orientation becomes a problem.
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Mark Turner
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Given the number of games facing this issue, I felt a geeklist was appropriate.

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/173621/games-with-anonymou...
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The biggest reason I imagine companies aren't using plastics and such is the cost. You increase the cost of this game even a bit and you lose a bunch of potential clients.

Including sleeves would probably be cost prohibitive since it's done from a different manufacture most likely.

They want to keep things at a certain price point and this is how they do it.
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