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Subject: Lukas Answer: External Randomization Aids and PSI Bidding rss

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Captain Frisk
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Quote:
Rule Question:
May I roll a die or other source of randomization aide (spinning a dice ring) prior to making a psi bid selection?

If yes - am I in any way bound to show the result to my opponent, or is my subsequent psi bid constrained in any manner? (ie - am I free to always bid 1 regardless of what my external randomization aide generates?)

The latest FAQ states that external aides are legal, but mentions in the context of HQ access - so naturally there are follow-on statements such as this one from BGG:

"Except psi bids are not random so using a dice to determine what you are going to choose is not based on the rules. I doubt anyone is going to bring it up, but it is definitely not supported by the rules though it does not explicitly forbid it either."


Quote:
Thanks for the question. A player is free to use whatever method they feel like when deciding what to bid on a psi card. Rolling a die or some other source of randomization has no effect on the bid's validity, provided each player places 0-2 credits in their hand and reveals them at the same time. That is the only thing that is binding. Hope that helps,

--
Lukas Litzsinger
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

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Ony Moose
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You'd be pretty stupid to use randomisation in Psi bidding openly. If the corp knows the runner is rolling a die, and mapping 1,2->0, 3,4->1 5,6->2 then all the corp has to do is pick 0 every time and they will still win 1/3 of the time, but the runner will be out of pocket 1C on average each time, while the corp spends only 0C.
 
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piotr s
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but if he mapping may depend of value of target if target value is 6 my mapping function is 1->0 2,3->1 4,5,6->2
if runner spend 0 he get 1/6*6=1
if he spend 1 he get 1/3*6-1=2-1=1
if he spend 2 he get 1/2*6-2=3-2=1
on average
 
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piotr s
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or as an runner if a think the target value is 6
my mapping is 1,2,3->0 4,5->1 6->2
if corp spend 0 i get 1/2*6=3
if he spend 1 i get 1/3*6+1=3
if he spend 2 i get 1/6*6+2=3

[Edit]
P.S
I don't think I'm stupid because i consider using randomisation in PSI
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Andrew Keddie
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You can change what the value on the die means to Psi-selection before you roll each time, if you want. Nothing means you have to always decide 6 means 2 creds, for example.
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Alan Fluck
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Kandiru wrote:
You'd be pretty stupid to use randomisation in Psi bidding openly. If the corp knows the runner is rolling a die, and mapping 1,2->0, 3,4->1 5,6->2 then all the corp has to do is pick 0 every time and they will still win 1/3 of the time, but the runner will be out of pocket 1C on average each time, while the corp spends only 0C.


And then if the runner realizes the corp is doing that he can keep rolling the die, but just pick 1 regardless of the roll, and win every time.

Until the corp realizes he's doing that and...
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James
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Its a shame he ruled like this because using random aids to randomly determine credits spent in a Psi battle is the exact opposite of a psychic battle, thematically speaking. This bidding should be a small battle of wits, not random die rolls.
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piotr s
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but player can before game start roll in home 10 times and remember dice result, or this should be prohibited?
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Micheal Keane
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
You can change what the value on the die means to Psi-selection before you roll each time, if you want. Nothing means you have to always decide 6 means 2 creds, for example.


Doesn't matter what you're mapping it to or what you're using. Your opponent can always bid 0, have the same chance of winning and always come out ahead financially.

Vonderbread wrote:
Its a shame he ruled like this because using random aids to randomly determine credits spent in a Psi battle is the exact opposite of a psychic battle, thematically speaking. This bidding should be a small battle of wits, not random die rolls.


If you're legitimately using a die (or other random number generator) to determine your bid, you're playing sub-optimally and your opponent should take advantage of that.

If you're only using a die to make your opponent *think* you're playing sub-optimally when you're really disregarding the result, that's in the spirit of the mind games. I'd consider uneven weighting to be in this category of trickery.
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Brian H
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Mess with the best, die like the rest.
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piotrsmu wrote:
but player can before game start roll in home 10 times and remember dice result, or this should be prohibited?


According to Lukas you can do whatever you want. You aren't forced to try to anticipate what your opponent is going to do, or whatever.
 
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Patrick Jamet
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I'm glad I'm not forced to read my opponent's mind. The last time I did it, I was horrified.
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Witold Jakubowski
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This is setting some space for cheat like actions.

Met a guy who opelny used dice (two of them, from another game) to determine his bid as a runner, in hope that the corp will bid 0 (not spending any creds and still having a chance to win). The trick was nasty, 'cause those specific dice had uneven distribution - when rolling two of them, zeros come more often than ones and twos.

Easy to overlook, occured to me as cheating. But one can call it
some source of randomization", right?
 
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Sebastian Barth
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donmakaron wrote:
This is setting some space for cheat like actions.

Met a guy who opelny used dice (two of them, from another game) to determine his bid as a runner, in hope that the corp will bid 0 (not spending any creds and still having a chance to win). The trick was nasty, 'cause those specific dice had uneven distribution - when rolling two of them, zeros come more often than ones and twos.

Easy to overlook, occured to me as cheating. But one can call it
some source of randomization", right?

The solution is rather simple: Just expect shenanigans, ignore your opponents method and choose depending on game state.
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Steven Tu
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donmakaron wrote:
This is setting some space for cheat like actions.

Met a guy who opelny used dice (two of them, from another game) to determine his bid as a runner, in hope that the corp will bid 0 (not spending any creds and still having a chance to win). The trick was nasty, 'cause those specific dice had uneven distribution - when rolling two of them, zeros come more often than ones and twos.

Easy to overlook, occured to me as cheating. But one can call it
some source of randomization", right?


How the hell did that conversation go? "Hey, I'm gonna roll these dice, and you're gonna bet 0, ok? that way I only have 1/3 chance of winning. Sounds fair to you?"

"Derp sure"
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Chris Hinkes
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I'm going to throw chicken bones to determine what to bid.
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Chris Wood
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Pssh, everyone knows the best way to get good readings of the future is with Aeromancy. Bring a barometer, a wind gauge, i'll be good to go.
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