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Subject: Burst Math & Turn Limit rss

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Barry Miller
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Hi all,

I just started playing this game... have both Aces High and Guns Blazing. It took a couple read-throughs of the rules to answer most of my newbie questions. However, one or two still nag...

One of my questions concerns Burst math and turn limits:

I'm confused by the wording on pg 8, in the description for 'Tailing':
[Your fighter gains]"...(just 2 extra Bursts, if 1 has already been gained from being Advantaged.)"

These following core rules are straight-forward:
- While your fighter is Advantaged, you get to add 1 Burst to your inherent rating. Simple enough.
- Or while your fighter is tailing, you get to add 3 Bursts to your inherent rating. Again, simple enough and makes sense.

So I'm confused by the above-mentioned quote from pg 8.

Lets pretend my fighter has zero inherent Bursts. The way the rules are written, it appears that I can maneuver into an Advantaged position and attack my opponent with a 1 Burst cost card. Then for my next action, I should be able to maneuver into a Tailing position and be able to attack with a 3 Burst card.

* I couldn't find anything in the core rules to contradict the above, except the quote from pg 8, which I couldn't find any basis for. Hence my question, what does the quote mean?

NOTE:
My search for an answer here in this forum has uncovered several references, even from Dan himself, to a "Turn Limit" for Bursts.
The only place in the rules that mentions a turn limit is on page 19, in the OPTIONAL RULES section, and under the paragraph labeled, "Playing Bursts Against Different Aircraft"

So right now, all I'm going-on is Dan's authoritative comment elsewhere in this forum that yes, there are turn limits for Bursts. But I'm the type that likes to produce a published reference for a rule when the needs calls.

So given that establishing a turn limit for Bursts falls under the "Optional Rules" category; and also, apparently per the paragraph heading, is further applicable only when playing against multiple enemy aircraft, I wonder if the scenario I presented above is OK if I'm playing 1 vs 1 and choose not to use the optional rules?

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Uwe Heilmann
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Hi from Germany,

please, take a look there.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/864951/difference-between-bu...

This should help.


Cheers
U.L.H.

 
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Barry Miller
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Uwe,

Thank you much for posting a reply! I read the thread you recommended, and if you're suggesting that your post in that thread (Oct 3, 2012, 9:17 am) will answer my question, I'm afraid it doesn't. As a matter of fact, it helps to support my position.

I think the fault for the confusion lay with me. My original post wasn't about being confused over the how many Bursts you get when neutral/advantaged/tailing, but rather,

I'm confused why the rules say that you get ONLY TWO Bursts when Tailing if one has already been gained from being Adavantaged (pg 8). Why don't you get three Bursts whether or not you previously used the one from being Advantaged?

I've read many of your posts in these forums and appreciate your insight. But unfortunately, none answer the above question.

Thanks!

 
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Uwe Heilmann
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Hi,

let me try again.

The rules are simple and straightforward:

An aircraft attacking from an advantageous relative position gains 1 extra burst to its inherent capability.
An aircraft attacking from the tailing relative position gets 2 extra bursts to its inherent capability.

Both these effects are LINKED though.
An aircraft cannot get more than 3 extra bursts by relative positioning.
Therefore, applying the extra burst by exploiting an advantageous relative position EATS AWAY one of the three extra bursts maximum.
If an aircraft achieves the tailing relative position, it does not get three more extra bursts, but only 2 more if one extra burst was already used during the same turn.

All this is also addressed and explained in the link I included previously.

Keep asking.


Cheers
U.L.H.

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Barry Miller
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Uwe,

Thanks again for taking your time to respond. I appreciate it! But unfortunately, your reply still leaves me questioning where in the rulebook the Burst math is made clear. (I'm a little thick)!

tuner 13 wrote:
An aircraft attacking from the tailing relative position gets 2 extra bursts to its inherent capability.
An aircraft cannot get more than 3 extra bursts by relative positioning.

Where in the rulebook are these two rules written? This is what I'm having trouble finding. (Pg 3 says a Tailing aircraft gets 3 extra bursts).

tuner 13 wrote:
If an aircraft achieves the tailing relative position, it does not get three more extra bursts, but only 2 more if one extra burst was already used during the same turn.

Yes, this is mentioned on pg 8 of the rules. But the words come "out of the blue", without any other explanation or reasoning provided anywhere else in the core rules.

The rule on pg 3 IS clear that, "When Advantaged, you get +1 Burst. When Tailing you get +3 Bursts."

Can't get any simpler or clearer than that. My crux is other than the aforementioned excerpt from pg 8, there's nothing in the rules that contradicts this simple concept of +1 when Advantaged or +3 when Tailing.

The problem again, is that there's no explanation or basis in the rules for why the Pg 8 excerpt is there ("(or just 2 extra Bursts, if 1 has already been gained from being Advantaged)"). When I first read it, I remarked to myself, "Huh? Where did that come from? What does it mean?" I couldn't find any explanation for it.

Another example to illustrate my confusion: let's say early in my turn I was Tailing and spent the +3 bursts for an attack. Then I maneuvered to become Advantaged. There's nothing written in the rules, that I could find, that contradicts the basic concept that I now also have a +1 burst for being advantaged.

And finally, a lot of people in this forum mention the "5 burst" limit. But that's an OPTIONAL rule.

Again, there's nothing in the core rules that adequately modifies the simple "Bursts" rule found on pg 3.


Whew! Again, thanks for your patience and assistance!

 
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Uwe Heilmann
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Hi again,

another "here we go" ...

DiF is a simulation of air war (not comprehensively, but effectively for the selected topics). One of those topics is combat in dogfight of the WW II era.
The decisive factor of those dogfights was the "aiming with your own aircraft". Nearly all fighters had fixed air-to-air guns (the P-61 was a notable exception). This forced the pilots to bring their fighter into specific relative positions to their intended targets.

The DiF simulation system knows 5 relative positions.

The "advantaged" position provides the pilot (=player) the bonus of 1 extra burst. What does it exactly mean?
The aircraft has a decent chance to hit the target with the stream of bullets just fired.
The "tailing" position is the best possible (check SIX!) as it provides an even greater chance to hit.

The game system links all five relative positions including the burst bonus effect, i.e. the +1 burst bonus is inherent in the +3 burst bonus.

The game system also takes into account the operational factor TIME. Each game turn simulates the parallel permanent movements of the aircraft involved. Therefore, different relative positions achieved by aircraft during a turn are not "one following the other" but only the best one achieved counts.

Example: the active fighter starts in the neutral position, achieves "advantage" against a target, improves the relative position to "tailing", and then changes back to an "advantaged" relative position (this last action done voluntarily is somewhat strange ... why to degrade a superiority by oneself?).

The overall "burst bonus" scoring is:
+1, then 2 more, then 0 more.

Let's assume the aircraft has a basic number of bursts of 1.
Possible attack sequence: one attack from neutral position requiring exactly 1 burst.
After achieving the "advantage", another attack would be possible, again with exactly 1 burst.
(If no attack took place in the neutral relative position, the attacker could have played eligible attack cards (IMS, OOS) with a maximum total of 2 bursts. Remark: if you have 2 attack cards requiring 1 burst each, their use is much more thrilling as the target would have to respond twice (use the weaker effect card first to trigger the target to play its best respond cards); if you have a single "2 burst" attack card, the effect might be better, but the target only has to respond in one Action card sequence. DiF is great reflecting exactly those tactics in dogfight, see above.)
Now the aircraft moves into "tailing" relative position.
Depending on the just completed actions, the fighter would have 2, 3, or 4 bursts left.
Regarding the somewhat strange continuation back to the "advantaged" relative position, the numbers of bursts left would be 0 (two or more bursts were already fired during previous stages of this turn), 1 (one burst was fired during a previous stage of this turn) or 2 (no burst was fired so far during this turn).
In no case - NO CASE - the fighter would gain 1 extra burst again.

Bottom line:
During each turn, a fighter aircraft can gain a total of up to 3 extra bursts. And this only works in a maximum of two steps.

First possible flow: +1, then +2 (the aircraft changes to (or starts from) relative position "advantaged", then changes to relative position "tailing").
Second possible flow: +3 (the aircraft changes to (or starts from) relative position "tailing".

The following sequence of actions would also only provide the affected attacking aircraft just one extra burst:
The attacker changes from "neutral" to "advantaged", changes to "neutral" again (strange but allowed), changes to "advantaged" again. All this provides nothing more than EXACTLY ONE extra burst.

The mysterious "+5 burst limit"?
Recommendation: forget it.
There are very few aircraft with an inherent burst value of +3 or higher. Yes, they are striking powerful if they achieve a relative position of "advantaged" or higher. But they are already strong enough to blow you out of the air from the neutral position. Why should they bother ...

This rule addresses the topic also crystal clear:
Your fighter’s nose is pointed at
an enemy fighter’s tail. Your
fighter gains 3 extra Bursts when
Tailing (or just 2 extra Bursts, if 1
has already been gained from
being Advantaged.)


Blame DVG if they did not write it elsewhere in the rules book.
The GMT Games rules specified it explicitly.

Common sense also produces the same conclusion. The simulation system of DiF implies this effect also as addressed above.


Cheers
U.L.H.

 
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Barry Miller
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Uwe, we gotta stop meeting like this!

Again, I agree with everything you said in as such that it simply all makes sense. You presented it very well and I appreciate that. But still, my original confusion lay with the rules not agreeing.


So, what I'm going to do is simply play the game the way you describe without feeling compelled to refer to the rules. I like the way you explain the math.


However, if my confusion was ever to be addressed via the rulebook, it would start with two quotes from your reply:
tuner 13 wrote:
The game system links all five relative positions including the burst bonus effect, i.e. the +1 burst bonus is inherent in the +3 burst bonus.
And,
tuner 13 wrote:
Bottom line:
During each turn, a fighter aircraft can gain a total of up to 3 extra bursts. And this only works in a maximum of two steps.


I could NOT find any wording in the rules that support the above statements. Simple as that. That's my confusion!


EXCEPT: There is the rule on pg 8 that you quoted, (as well as I in my last post),"(or just 2 extra Bursts, if 1 has already been gained from being Advantaged.)"
My problem with these words though (and why they don't help clarify my confusion), is that there is NO BASIS anywhere else in the rules to support or derive those words. It's as if those words are written in a vacuum... or produced out of thin air. There is no context for those words elsewhere in the rulebook.

It'd be like if I wrote rules for a game that say, "Any time you roll a 6, you get three Gold Stars!" That is straight-forward enough. And let's assume there's no other words in the rulebook that modify that basic rule. But then in the example for that rule, it reads, "Johnny rolled a 6 but gets only two Gold Stars because he rolled a 3 on his previous turn". You'd rightfully say to yourself, "Huh? Why is that? Where did that come from?!"


I think you summed-it up best when you said,
tuner 13 wrote:
Blame DVG if they did not write it elsewhere in the rules book.


To conclude, I like your explanation and so I'll simply tell my opponents that's the way we're playing!

Next time I'm in Germany, I'll buy you a half-liter of your choice!

Thanks!

 
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Gary Logs
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I have the original DIF and not this series but think I understand your question. If I may take a shot (or burst ):

I suspect the context of where the "2 extra bursts" phrase is used may be trying to reflect the value "gain" of the position improvement if going from an already Advantaged (gives +1 burst) to Tailing (gives +3 burst). It may be trying to show the positioning benefit is a fixed state benefit not an add on to any previous postioning benefit.

- Starting Neutral to Tailing goes from rating to rating+3 Burst (gained 3).
- Starting Advantaged to Trailing goes from rating+1 to rating+3 Burst (gained 2).

This is consitent with the original series. It's a fun play, hope you enjoy the dynamics. Sorry If I didn't help.
 
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Gary Logs
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Also, as to going from Tailing to Advantaged in your turn, you are only as good as your current attack position and how many bursts you've taken in the turn already.

If you attacked with a rating+2 Burst card from Tailing then moved to Advantaged, you've already consumed what your current state allows.
 
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Barry Miller
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Gary,

Thanks much for your great reply. Yes, I whole-heartedly agree with your explanation. And I also thank Uwe for getting me to this point.

I've given-up on my original frustration that none of this logic is established in the "Bursts" paragraph on pg 3.
Even the example on pg 3 makes it sound clear that you add one to your neutral burst rating when in an Advantaged position, and you add three when bursts when in a tailing position.
Geeze - you can't get any clearer than that... especially when that's all the rules say about earning extra bursts for position... except of course for those words on pg 8 that seemingly pop-up out of no-where. I'm sorry - I've gone into my passive-aggressive mode again.

The point is that I like your wording a lot:
ncree wrote:
...the positioning benefit is a fixed state benefit not an add on to any previous postioning benefit.

- Starting Neutral to Tailing goes from rating to rating+3 Burst (gained 3).
- Starting Advantaged to Trailing goes from rating+1 to rating+3 Burst (gained 2).

Only if your wording was incorporated into the Burts rule on pg 3, THEN the rule on pg 8 would make sense and have basis! It's the lack of basis gave birth to my confusion.

So, Uwe and Gary, thank you both for helping explain what the rulebook meant to say. It's helped a lot and is how I will play the game!

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