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Subject: Reaction to Tactics Cards / Confusing wording in rules? rss

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Barry Miller
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Hi all,

I'm a little confused by the last sentence of the first 'Tactic Cards' paragraph (pg 6). The full paragraph reads,

"Tactic Cards
Some Action cards have the word, "Tactic" in their Attack or React To sections. A Tactic card is played on your own aircraft. The other players can not play cards in reaction to it".

Ok, so its the last sentence that has me confused.

There are five Tactic cards in the game. Evasive and Redline are two. The other three are:
- Yo-Yo
- Vertical Roll
- Tight Turn


If I'm understanding the game correctly, and supported by the way I interpret the rest of the rules, each of the above three cards CAN BE reacted to!

- Yo-Yo can be reacted to by a Vertical Roll, Scissors, Ace Pilot, or Yo-Yo
- Vertical Roll can be reacted to by Yo-Yo or Vertical Roll
- Tight Turn can be reacted to by Yo-Yo, Scissors, Ace Pilot, or Tight Turn

Hence my confusion over the statement that other players can not play cards in reaction to a tactic card.


This statement even seemingly contradicts the "Card Play" paragraph on the same page, which says,"The opposing player can play a card in reaction if the title of your card appears in its React To area".

Thanks!


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Uwe Heilmann
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Hi from Germany,

here is how I use Tactics.

1 - Many action cards provide more than 1 option for play. But selecting one of those options automatically excludes the application of the other ones.

2 - Four card types provide the option for tactics: Redline, Yo-Yo, Evasive, and Tight Turn.

3 - Two of those cards can also be used by the non-active player, i.e. they provide the option to respond with a tactic.

Here are four examples.

Evasive
This is a white card, i.e. may be played by the active as well as the inactive player.
The card provides actually 2 options for the active player and 1 option for the inactive player.
Option 1 for the active player: playing the card as a Maneuver-2 card.
Option 2: actually the "evasive option". This tactic provides an extra protection for the aircraft as any enemy playing IMS or OOS card against it consumes one burst (this tactic is valid until the player's next turn. Note: any number of such tactic cards may be played. This effect is accumulative.
The option for the inactive player: play this card the moment when the own aircraft is going to be hit. The number of scored hits is reduced by 2. Again, this is an accumulative effect, but valid only for a single occurrence (each).

Tight Turn
A blue card, i.e. can be used by all players as a response.
The active player can also use this card as a tactic (negating the card's option as a tight turn).
The tactic provides the attacker an extra hit for his very next attack of the same turn. Accumulative effect!

Redline
A white card.
The active player has two options: he can use the card for its tactic (reckless maneuver taking one hit but then drawing 3 extra cards), or for a Maneuver-1.
The inactive player may only use the card for its tactic (the same reckless maneuver to gain more options instantly).

Yo-Yo
A white card.
The active player has three options. Use the card as a Maneuver-1. Use the card for its tactic (one extra hit for his very next attack during the on-going turn; accumulative effect). Use the card to respond to a barrel roll, scissors, Yo-Yo, tight turn, or vertical roll.
The inactive player may use the card only as a response.


I hope all this helps a little bit.


The Down in Flames game series is great.


Cheers
U.L.H.




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Barry Miller
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Uwe,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your reply. Thank you for the time you took. While I thoroughly understand and concur with your reply, I admit that it still hasn't answered my question. I fully understand that each card has multiple uses (actions) and only one can be selected when the card is played. Instead my confusion is with using certain cards as a reaction to the play of a Tactic action, and the discrepancy in the rulebook that causes my confusion. Let me explain...

First, I'm not sure what you're referring to as "White" and "Blue" cards? You did a good job explaining what these cards are, but my version of the game (2010) doesn't use that mechanic. Instead, the cards in the 2010 version are categorized into three groups: "Attack" Cards (2 red squares bottom left corner); "Reaction" Cards (2 blue squares); and, "Attack & Reaction" Cards (1 red & 1 blue square). I haven't seen any earlier versions.

OK, about the confusion I originally posted... let's use 'Tight Turn' as an example:
Your quote:
"Tight Turn
A blue card, i.e. can be used by all players as a response.
The active player can also use this card as a tactic (negating the card's option as a tight turn).


My comments/confusion:
- I understand/agree that all players can use it as a response (i.e., Reaction).
- I also agree that if used as a Tactic card instead, it can't be used as a Reaction card.
- But I'm still confused as to why the rules on pg 6 say that if used as a Tactic card, the other players cannot react to it?

A contradictory rule, also on pg 6, is clear. Quote:
"You initiate an action by playing a card. The opposing player can play a card in reaction if the title of your card appears in it's React To area."

To support the above quoted rule, even your image shows that the 'Yo-Yo' and other 'Tight Turn' cards can react to the play of a 'Tight Turn' card.
For example, if I play a 'Tight Turn', you can react to it with a 'Yo-Yo' or another 'Tight Turn'. In other words, if I play 'Tight Turn' as a Tactic action (to score +1 hit on my next attack) the aforementioned rule clearly states that you can play a 'Yo-Yo' or a 'Tight Turn' in reaction to my playing of 'Tight Turn', as both cards have "Tight Turn" listed in the React To box. (Using 'Tight Turn' may be a bad example here as its able to react to itself, only confusing the narrative! )

But anyway, do you see where my confusion is, with regard to the way the rulebook is written? In one paragraph it says that cards can react to any card listed in its React To area, while another paragraph says that isn't the case.

Your "Yo-Yo" quote even helps to illustrate my point:
Your Quote:
"The active player has three options. Use the card as a Maneuver-1. Use the card for its tactic (one extra hit for his very next attack during the on-going turn; accumulative effect). Use the card to respond to a barrel roll, scissors, Yo-Yo, tight turn, or vertical roll."

My Comment:
- Again I agree. But its the 3rd option ("Use the card to respond to a...") that illustrates my confusion with the rulebook.
- If I play a 'Tight Turn' or another "Yo-Yo" for their +1 hit Tactic action, or a 'Vertical Roll' for its change altitude Tactic action, or if I'm playing either of those cards as a reaction to a card you just played; then according to the rules, you should be able to play your "yo-Yo' card as a reaction to my card play... per the rule on pg 6, under "Card Play".

THIS is where my confusion lay - the discrepancy in the rules mentioned above with nothing written that clears the discrepancy. (Nothing that I could find, anyway).

And BTW, let's not forget about 'Vertical Roll" as the fifth Tactic card.

Thanks again for all your responses. They are always helpful!

 
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Uwe Heilmann
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Hi again,

here we go again.

Fact 1: each Action card (regardless how many options it provides) can only be used for exactly one option when played as declared by the player using it.

Fact 2: an Action card used to apply the given Tactic cannot be reacted to. Rules, page 6:
Some Action cards have the word “Tactic” in their
Attack or React To sections. A Tactic card is played
on your own aircraft. The other players cannot play
cards in reaction to it.

What is confusing about this?
Fact 1 "transforms" a played card into exactly one specific card. Any and all other options listed on the card are GONE. Repeat: GONE.
For example, a Tight Turn card listing also a Tactic is ONLY a Tactic card when the player using this card declares that he is using this card for its Tactic.
Forget the Tight Turn listed on that same card.
Fact 2 prohibits any reaction to this card then. Tactics cannot be responded to.

Again, what is confusing about all this?!

This is what the rules book says regarding this topic:
When you play a card as a Maneuvering card, your
opponent can react by playing a card that reacts to a
Maneuvering card.
Example:
You play an Ace Pilot as a Maneuvering card. The other
player can play a Tight Turn in reaction because Tight
Turn cards can react to Maneuvering cards.


Red, blue and white cards ...
As you noticed, I use my own Action card design (actually based on the card design used in the GMT Games version of DiF).
Instead of hiding the tiny red and blue bars in the bottom left corner of the Action cards (where you can't see them holding the cards in your hand), all key data is in the top left and top right corners of the Action cards.

This makes gameplay a little bit easier and faster.

Back to your statements.
For example, if I play a 'Tight Turn', you can react to it with a 'Yo-Yo' or another 'Tight Turn'. In other words, if I play 'Tight Turn' as a Tactic action (to score +1 hit on my next attack) the aforementioned rule clearly states that you can play a 'Yo-Yo' or a 'Tight Turn' in reaction to my playing of 'Tight Turn', as both cards have "Tight Turn" listed in the React To box. (Using 'Tight Turn' may be a bad example here as its able to react to itself, only confusing the narrative! )

But anyway, do you see where my confusion is, with regard to the way the rulebook is written? In one paragraph it says that cards can react to any card listed in its React To area, while another paragraph says that isn't the case.


Please, get rid of the idea that a Tight Turn card played for its Tactic is still a Tight Turn card for the other player. It has become a Tactic card where there is no way to respond to it.

The rules are still correct. All statements are linked to the card that is really on the table (after the decision what exact card is has become depending on the declaration of the player playing it).
There NEVER is a multi-purpose card on the table!!!!
The inactive player has no choice what to make out of the card just played by his opponent.

From my point of view all this is clear and understandable, fits to the applied simulation and works fine.


Cheers
U.L.H.



 
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Barry Miller
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Uwe,

Eureka! I think you succeeded in helping me see the light. I really do appreciate your time. This post is a long way of saying, "Thank you", so please excuse if it comes across as being passive-aggressive - I don't intend it to be - I'm still working on my style. The most important thing is that one of your sentences may've helped me "see the light". I'll get to that in a second.

But first I want to make clear how I already comprehend and fully agree with most everything you wrote in your reply. Thusly it's apparent that we've been simply speaking past each other. When that happens it's typically the fault of the initiator, so I'll take the blame for not better conveying my confusion.

OK, here's your sentence that I think may've broken through the ice...
tuner 13 wrote:
Please, get rid of the idea that a Tight Turn card played for its Tactic is still a Tight Turn card for the other player.
And you also wrote (about using the Tight Turn as a Tactic card),
tuner 13 wrote:
Forget the Tight Turn listed on that same card.


Those two sentences illustrate why I think we've been speaking past each other...
It appears I have a different concept of what the card titles are for, and this may be the root of my confusion.

In my mind, and per the rulebook on pg 5, "Tight Turn" is the card's title, and nothing more. And in my experience, card titles have NO inherent ability, power, or action capability.
They are only used by the players & other cards as a reference to that card.

So when you wrote, "Please, get rid of the idea that a Tight Turn card played for its Tactic is still a Tight Turn card for the other player",
I previously would have countered with a,
"But IT IS a 'Tight Turn' card for the other player, NO MATTER HOW YOU PLAY IT! The card's title SAYS SO. If you play it as a Tactic card, it's STILL A 'Tight Turn' card (the card's title says so). Or if you play it as a Reaction card, it's still a 'Tight Turn' card (the card's title says so)." (Or IF it had a maneuver value, and if it was such played as a maneuver card instead, it would also still be a 'Tight Turn' card).

So now I hope you can see where my confusion was and how you helped me see the light... what you're saying is (and this is how its now making sense to me), is that:

The card's title is only relevant when it's played as a Reaction (edit: or Attack) card. For all intents and purposes, the card's title is considered to be blank when it's played as a Tactics (or maneuver) card.

If that's what you're saying, now I see the light!

And also, if that is what you're essentially saying, my confusion was with not being able to find any mention of that notion in the rules.

To try and explain my original confusion better (because I feel bad that I didn't do a good job previously):

- Yes, I get it, that each card can be used for only one option - this was never in question. (i.e., A Tight Turn can be used as either a Tactic card, OR a Reaction card, but not both) - yes I get that.

- And yes, I see the part in the rules that Tactic cards can't be reacted to. This was only in question because it was directly contradicted by the rule on page 6, under the heading, "Card Play" (discussed in my last post).


You asked, "Again, what is confusing about all this?!" ... well I guess it was:
- My own notion that the card's title was only that and nothing more, (meaning it fell subject to the rule on pg 6, under "Card Play"), and
- The aforementioned discrepancy between the "Tactics Cards" and the "Card Play" rules, that also caused my confusion.

But again, you were patient and helped me get past my inability to see the rules in a different light. All is good.

Thanks!

 
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