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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Cover questions rss

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Mark Caskey
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Hello all,

here are a few questions and situations I would like clarified by this esteemed body.

1. Cover is not cumulative, you take the best cover available as the defender. So for example a pillbox in a house adds +5 (pillbox only), not +8 (pillbox + house). In the case of a road going through a wooded hex, can the defender elect to take the woods cover (+2) and ignore the road penalty (-1) on defense, route and recover rolls, following the non cumulative rule?

2. a hedge does give cover against a fire attack (+1) if the fire attack passes through the targets hexside, and the wall gives +2. Does the hedge or wall give cover for recover, rout and defense against artillery rolls? Technically not passing through the hexside, but you could see sheltering behind a stone wall as giving some morale boost and cover. We were playing scenario 2, and those bocage hedgerows were everywhere, and boosted to +2 cover.

thanks!

Mark
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Richard Pardoe
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mcaskey11925 wrote:
In the case of a road going through a wooded hex, can the defender elect to take the woods cover (+2) and ignore the road penalty (-1) on defense, route and recover rolls, following the non cumulative rule?

No. The cover of road is not -1. Reread T93: Road wherein it states that cover for road is:

COVER: none; however, the Cover of any other Fortification or Terrain within a hex containing a Road is decreased by 1.

so there is no "cumulative" cover for woods and road at play here.

Quote:
Does the hedge or wall give cover for recover, rout and defense against artillery rolls?

No. The rules as written specifically exclude providing cover against mortars and artillery:

T97: Wall
COVER: none; or 2 if a Fire Attack crossed the Wall as it entered the target hex (not applicable when firing Mortars or Artillery).


And the cover of "none" is what applies for recover and rout rolls - so use the other terrain cover in the hex.
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Mark Caskey
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Thanks for the swift response. I should just post questions to the forum as i am playing, and get real time responses!

Mark
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Richard Pardoe
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mcaskey11925 wrote:
I should just post questions to the forum as i am playing, and get real time responses!

I can't believe that is the fastest way to get answers....
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Chadwik
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RPardoe wrote:
mcaskey11925 wrote:
I should just post questions to the forum as i am playing, and get real time responses!

I can't believe that is the fastest way to get answers....

Ayup: quickest way is down Relevant Rule Section Blvd. via the Index Off-Ramp.
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Russ Williams
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The search function in your PDF reader of choice is also often a speedier solution than posting a forum question.
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Steve Shockley
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Well, Mark did refer to us as an esteemed body. Flattery will get you everywhere, sir. Ask away! ;)
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Richard Pardoe
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Magnus Maximus wrote:
Mark did refer to us as an esteemed body.

Makes it sound like we are all in a Norwegian sauna......
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Russ Williams
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RPardoe wrote:
Magnus Maximus wrote:
Mark did refer to us as an esteemed body.

Makes it sound like we are all in a Norwegian sauna......

Or a virtual sauna, as we are e-steamed...
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Mark J
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PDF? It's assumed everyone has the pdf version of the rules? Is there one? And I know it's ethical to do a forum search for what you're looking for but it's not always easy sifting through all the results hoping to find specifically what you're looking for. However, I'm going to go do that now as I have questions after my latest session. Be back if I can't find my answer.
 
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Jason Schmidt
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I find the best way to search these forums is to actually use google.com by searching in this way:

site:boardgamegeek.com

so for example:

site:boardgamegeek.com combat commander cover behind hedge

It seems to produce a lot better results than the forum search here I find.
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Brian Olmstead
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DiploGuy wrote:
PDF? It's assumed everyone has the pdf version of the rules? Is there one? And I know it's ethical to do a forum search for what you're looking for but it's not always easy sifting through all the results hoping to find specifically what you're looking for. However, I'm going to go do that now as I have questions after my latest session. Be back if I can't find my answer.


Almost all GMT games have their rules online:
http://www.gmtgames.com/living_rules/CC_Rulebook_v1.1.pdf
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Russ Williams
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DiploGuy wrote:
PDF? It's assumed everyone has the pdf version of the rules?

I assume everyone reading this thread has access to a computer and the internet. If they don't already get the rulebook PDFs for games they play, they might want to consider acquiring that very useful habit.

The vast majority of games have downloadable rules, usually easily findable at the publisher's website or here at BGG in the game's Files or Weblinks section.
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Confusion Under Fire
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mcaskey11925 wrote:


1. Cover is not cumulative, you take the best cover available as the defender.

emphasis mine

Just to clarify, you do not have to take the best cover if you have a choice. You may for example play a rout card on your own units and use the lowest cover because you want your units to rout, maybe out of the firing line.

I would suspect the road modifier has caught out many a player as it is different to the way a lot of other wargames handle it. I give kudos to Chad, or whoever is responsible, for the idea.
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Richard Pardoe
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whatambush wrote:
Just to clarify, you do not have to take the best cover if you have a choice. You may for example play a rout card on your own units and use the lowest cover because you want your units to rout, maybe out of the firing line.

Outside of SSR's or other edge cases, the only time a player would have a choice is when a fortification is present in a hex. Then the player can choose between the cover of the terrain or the cover of the fortification. (T78.3)
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Christopher
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RPardoe wrote:
whatambush wrote:
Just to clarify, you do not have to take the best cover if you have a choice. You may for example play a rout card on your own units and use the lowest cover because you want your units to rout, maybe out of the firing line.

Outside of SSR's or other edge cases, the only time a player would have a choice is when a fortification is present in a hex. Then the player can choose between the cover of the terrain or the cover of the fortification. (T78.3)


Interestingly, and pedantically , the rulebook glossary says "A hex’s best Cover is added directly to the Morale of every unit occupying that hex." Of course, it doesn't say what "best" means here.

I also wonder about when routing an opponent who is in a fortification... who gets to choose what the cover is? Skimming through the rulebook, I see that 78.3 says that "a player must choose only one instance of Cover to apply if more than one is present", but it doesn't specify which player. Is it clear from some other rule that it is always the owning player?
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Russ Williams
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war_hero wrote:
I see that 78.3 says that "a player must choose only one instance of Cover to apply if more than one is present", but it doesn't specify which player. Is it clear from some other rule that it is always the owning player?


Indeed, it might have been better to write "the owning player" instead of "a player" in that rule.

(I think it's safe to assume that "the owning player" is the intent... Hmm, it would be a funny surprise if it wasn't the intent... and Chad comes in and says "No no, whoever has the initiative card decides!" or "Whoever speaks up first decides!" or something...)
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Cindy Nowak
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russ wrote:
war_hero wrote:
I see that 78.3 says that "a player must choose only one instance of Cover to apply if more than one is present", but it doesn't specify which player. Is it clear from some other rule that it is always the owning player?


Indeed, it might have been better to write "the owning player" instead of "a player" in that rule.

(I think it's safe to assume that "the owning player" is the intent... Hmm, it would be a funny surprise if it wasn't the intent... and Chad comes in and says "No no, whoever has the initiative card decides!" or "Whoever speaks up first decides!" or something...) :)


Continue reading in the grey box:
Quote:
A Team has a printed Morale of 7. If it occupied
a Brush hex, its Morale would be 8 (7;
+1 for the Cover of the Brush). If an enemy
Squad shoots at the Team across a Wall
hexside, the Team can choose to instead use
the (alternate) 2 Cover of the Wall, giving it
a Morale of 9 for that attack. If that Team
was stacked with a Foxholes marker, the
owning player could choose to ignore both
the 1 Cover of the Brush and the 2 Cover of
the Wall and instead add the 3 Cover of the
Foxholes, giving it 10 Morale


First it says "the Team can choose", then more specifically "the owning player" S, it is specified who chooses.
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Russ Williams
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scoutmom wrote:
First it says "the Team can choose", then more specifically "the owning player" S, it is specified who chooses.

But (fully noting that we are in "pedantic mode" and that we probably all agree on the intent here) that is only a specific example, not a rule.

An example of the owning player making the choice doesn't imply that it must always be the owning player who makes the choice, any more than (e.g.) the Fire Attack example on page 13 ("The Axis player announces a Fire Order activating Sgt. Grein in hex K8.") implies that the Axis player must always activate Sgt. Grein in hex K8.
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Cindy Nowak
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russ wrote:
scoutmom wrote:
First it says "the Team can choose", then more specifically "the owning player" S, it is specified who chooses.

But (fully noting that we are in "pedantic mode" and that we probably all agree on the intent here) that is only a specific example, not a rule.

An example of the owning player making the choice doesn't imply that it must always be the owning player who makes the choice, any more than (e.g.) the Fire Attack example on page 13 ("The Axis player announces a Fire Order activating Sgt. Grein in hex K8.") implies that the Axis player must always activate Sgt. Grein in hex K8.


Quote:
Throughout this book you will see numerous
shaded boxes such as this one. These boxes
are filled with clarifications, play hints,
design notes, and other assorted wisdom in
order to help ease you along.


 
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Russ Williams
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scoutmom wrote:
russ wrote:
scoutmom wrote:
First it says "the Team can choose", then more specifically "the owning player" S, it is specified who chooses.

But (fully noting that we are in "pedantic mode" and that we probably all agree on the intent here) that is only a specific example, not a rule.

An example of the owning player making the choice doesn't imply that it must always be the owning player who makes the choice, any more than (e.g.) the Fire Attack example on page 13 ("The Axis player announces a Fire Order activating Sgt. Grein in hex K8.") implies that the Axis player must always activate Sgt. Grein in hex K8.


Quote:
Throughout this book you will see numerous
shaded boxes such as this one. These boxes
are filled with clarifications, play hints,
design notes, and other assorted wisdom in
order to help ease you along.

In principle, the gray boxes give no additional necessary rule information - in principle, the rules themselves are complete and suffice to answer all rule questions. (Most players I know seem to agree that it's undesirable to have rules which are defined only in examples, instead of the examples merely illustrating the already defined rules.)

I agree what the intent clearly is, but war_hero is right that "a player" is ambiguous. The the rule itself would have been better if it had said "the owning player" instead of "a player".

(If "a player" really suffices, then why do the rules take pains in so many other places to clearly say "the owner"/"the owning player"/etc instead of just "a player"? E.g. 11.3 quite rightly says "A Weapon may be voluntarily eliminated by its current owner at any time." instead of "A Weapon may be voluntarily eliminated by a player at any time." - surely "its current owner" is better here than "a player" for obvious reasons, even though the intent is surely clear either way.)

As a matter of principle, explicit unambiguous statements in the rules always trump not defining things in the rules and expecting the reader to infer the rule correctly from one specific example which applies the rule in one specific case.

(And to emphasize: this is "friendly pedantic mode" and "rule writing philosophy mode". Of course in practice, I agree that there's no real confusion here, just room for (slight) improvement in what are already extremely excellent rules, to be sure.)
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Richard Pardoe
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Chad chimed in on the issue 6 years ago:
Rout and choosing which cover to apply
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Russ Williams
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RPardoe wrote:
Chad chimed in on the issue 6 years ago:
Rout and choosing which cover to apply

Excellent! Your knowledge of old CC threads always impresses!
 
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