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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: When to use global ability:Phoenix rss

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kathleen edgington
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I was wondering if you are allowed to use global abilities at anytime during the game, before the extra energy dice are discarded. Like, for Phoenix: her ability is to force another player to attack. So, after spending my dice, if I have extra energy (before attacking) can I force my opponent to attack to clear up their field before making my own attack? Or can I only use this ability on their turn, during their attack phase?

Thank you!
 
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David Lockwood
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We ruled that you can only force an opponent to attack during their attacking phase or during their turn.
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kathleen edgington
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Thanks. That's what we've been doing, but I wanted to make sure it was fair.
 
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Heath K
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StormbringerGT wrote:
We ruled that you can only force an opponent to attack during their attacking phase or during their turn.


Actually, this is incorrect. You must use this Global Ability in the main step to force your opponent to attack in their attack step.

Once the attack step begins, Global Abilities can only be used after attackers and blockers have been assigned. So, you can't force an attack because the Assign Attackers step has already happened.

Read Page 8 of the rule book for more clarification.
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Brook Gentlestream
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Fat Jesus wrote:
StormbringerGT wrote:
We ruled that you can only force an opponent to attack during their attacking phase or during their turn.


Actually, this is incorrect. You must use this Global Ability in the main step to force your opponent to attack in their attack step.

Once the attack step begins, Global Abilities can only be used after attackers and blockers have been assigned. So, you can't force an attack because the Assign Attackers step has already happened.

Read Page 8 of the rule book for more clarification.


This is how we house-ruled it as well, and I think its the best way to rule it, but I disagree that its the only definitive interpretation. It just seems to be the one that makes the most sense, and causes the least game disruption, as opposed to saying that the card text overrides the normal attack rules by forcing an attack at any time.

Until something official comes, I recommend playing the way "StormbringerGT" suggests, above.

One nice thing about this game is that all the rule irregularities can be seen upfront during the setup of the game, and you can talk about how to handle ambiguous wording on the cards before the game even starts.
 
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Jeremy Williams
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I think the words "if able" need to be added to the card.
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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lordrahvin wrote:
Fat Jesus wrote:
StormbringerGT wrote:
We ruled that you can only force an opponent to attack during their attacking phase or during their turn.


Actually, this is incorrect. You must use this Global Ability in the main step to force your opponent to attack in their attack step.

Once the attack step begins, Global Abilities can only be used after attackers and blockers have been assigned. So, you can't force an attack because the Assign Attackers step has already happened.

Read Page 8 of the rule book for more clarification.


This is how we house-ruled it as well, and I think its the best way to rule it, but I disagree that its the only definitive interpretation. It just seems to be the one that makes the most sense, and causes the least game disruption, as opposed to saying that the card text overrides the normal attack rules by forcing an attack at any time.

Until something official comes, I recommend playing the way "StormbringerGT" suggests, above.

One nice thing about this game is that all the rule irregularities can be seen upfront during the setup of the game, and you can talk about how to handle ambiguous wording on the cards before the game even starts.


The rulebook states that if you pass the attack step, the turn ends. So you CANNOT by rules of the game force an attack outside of the MAIN STEP.

The card text does not ignore the rule book text in any way. The effect can take place during a time when global abilities may be activated (main step/after attackers and blocker have been declared). So you can only use this ability in the main step, because you can't declare more attackers after attackers have already been declared. So you cannot force an attack during an opponent's attack step, that is not in the rule book anywhere.
 
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robin goblin
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While this interpretation makes sense when the active player declares no attackers, as the turn has ended and there is no opportunity to play global actions, it doesn't make sense if the player has declared attackers.

In that circumstance, i would think you should be able to use the ability to force an additional character to attack after attackers and defenders are declared, but before damage is allocated.

"Card text always supersedes basic rule text."

Now, there are very limited times you'd want to do this as you are causing yourself to be attacked without the opportunity to block, but you might want to take damage to take a character off the field so the opponent has no or fewer blockers the next turn perhaps.

Anything wrong with this interpretation?

 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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Yes. Card text does indeed override rule book text. But a card's text does not change the game states and activation timings, UNLESS the card explicitly says so.

So you cannot use an ability outside of the places the rules allow. This global ability can ONLY be used in main step or after attackers/blockers have been assigned. The Phoenix ability does NOT say you can use the ability anytime you wish. Which means the ability follows the basic rules of the game.

If the player has declared attackers already, its too late to use this ability. You missed your timing and will have to wait until next time.
 
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Tim Ford
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I chimed in on this in another thread (global timings are a bit confusing) and came to the same conclusion as Jon.

I think in step 3 of the attack step you are free to use Phoenix's ability if you like. It just doesn't do anything as the declare attackers step has already passed.

Unless the argument is after attackers and blockers are declared any ability that says "force a character to attack" implies a re-execution of all previous steps in the phase to allow the attack to occur and be blocked (if desired). I just don't see that as a reasonable interpretation of the ability.

However I'm by no means an expert in a game I picked up a week ago. Just how I read the rules
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ICE 0ne
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noddingoff wrote:
While this interpretation makes sense when the active player declares no attackers, as the turn has ended and there is no opportunity to play global actions, it doesn't make sense if the player has declared attackers.

In that circumstance, i would think you should be able to use the ability to force an additional character to attack after attackers and defenders are declared, but before damage is allocated.

"Card text always supersedes basic rule text."

Now, there are very limited times you'd want to do this as you are causing yourself to be attacked without the opportunity to block, but you might want to take damage to take a character off the field so the opponent has no or fewer blockers the next turn perhaps.

Anything wrong with this interpretation?




The counter argument to this interpretation is I can attack with only a sidekick and then use the ability to make the rest of my team unblockable.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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Rather than deal with bizzare timing issues and trying to decide how much card rules supercede rulebook rules, my friends and I house-ruled this card based on what we feel was the most obvious intentions for the card:

1) You can use this ability to assign an attacker during your own Assign Attackers step, even if an effect would normally prevent the character from attacking. Normally a "can not" rule overrides a "you can" rule but it seems like a "force something to" should override even a "can not".

2) You can use this ability after the Assign Attackers step (but before proceeding to the Assign Blockers step) to force an opponent to add one more character to the group of attackers. Once blockers are declared, its too late to do this.

3) If the opponent declares that they are ending their turn and they have not attacked, you can use this global to force them to make an attack with a chosen character. The opponent must then have an Assign Attackers step and the chosen character must be in it. The player has the option of adding more attackers to the group or using other effects before proceeding to the Assign Blockers step.

 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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lordrahvin wrote:
Rather than deal with bizzare timing issues and trying to decide how much card rules supercede rulebook rules, my friends and I house-ruled this card based on what we feel was the most obvious intentions for the card:

1) You can use this ability to assign an attacker during your own Assign Attackers step, even if an effect would normally prevent the character from attacking. Normally a "can not" rule overrides a "you can" rule but it seems like a "force something to" should override even a "can not".

2) You can use this ability after the Assign Attackers step (but before proceeding to the Assign Blockers step) to force an opponent to add one more character to the group of attackers. Once blockers are declared, its too late to do this.

3) If the opponent declares that they are ending their turn and they have not attacked, you can use this global to force them to make an attack with a chosen character. The opponent must then have an Assign Attackers step and the chosen character must be in it. The player has the option of adding more attackers to the group or using other effects before proceeding to the Assign Blockers step.



#3 is the only correct way you can play out this scenario. Everything else is against the rule book and therefore illegal plays.

"my friends and I house-ruled this card based on what we feel was the most obvious intentions for the card" still does not constitute as rules for the game.
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Tim Ford
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Just as a question, where are the bizarre timing rules coming into question?

The rules pretty clearly show when players are allowed to use global abilities. In the main phase and in phase 3 of the attack step.

In both cases either player can choose to activate a global ability with priority going to the active player - once he or she chooses to pass any further global abilities the other player can then do global abilities. Do this back and forth until both players opt to pass.

Because both players have the option there's no way for the active player to just skip to attack phase, there always has to be a point that the other player is asked if they have global abilities to activate prior to ending the main phase. So the defensive player always has a chance to force the attacker's characters to attack with global abilities such as Phoenix if they wish to.

Why is there a need to introduce a new Use Global Ability/Actions step prior to Declare Attackers in the attack phase? Or to try and wrench the 3rd step around to somehow allow new attackers/defenders to be declared after these steps have already been completed?
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Brook Gentlestream
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Because otherwise forcing a character to attack whenever a global effect can be used allows a lot of weird attacks to occur outside the normal combat phase.

You yourself are house ruling that you have to wait until the combat phase for the global effect to resolved, when that's not what the rules say - the card says force a character to attack and the rules say the global effect must be resolved immediately and completely before moving on.

At the moment, there is no way to resolve this without house rules to just make common sense interpretations based on existing precedent unless you are willing to resolve some truly bizarre turns.
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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Pay [1 Bolt]. Target character must attack.

This effect forces a character to attack within the proper rules of the game. The effect DOES NOT force a character to attack outside of the rules. A character must attack: in the declare attackers step. A character cannot declare an attack in any step outside of the declare attackers step. This effect does in no way force a character to attack AFTER attackers and blockers have been declared.

If you are past the declare attackers and blockers then this effect is useless and you wasted energy on it.

Common sense does not need to make house rules for this ability. Common sense reads the rule book and how the attack step(s) work and understands how this ability interacts with those rules.

When you use the global effect, it does indeed resolve immediately. A target character now MUST attack. The effect does NOT say the target attacks immediately, or target attacks now. The effect says target must attack, so once the effect has been resolved, the target must attack within the game rules and at the first point it can legally attack. Once the turn is over, this effect wears off per the cleanup step rules.
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Tim Ford
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At least I understand where the confusion is stemming from now.

I agree that if activating the global ability to force a character to attack created an independent attack window where only that character had to attack immediately that would cause a whole ton of timing issues.

I honestly never even considered reading it this way. Thanks for the clarification.

I think if you stick with the timing rules as we are reading them it will make your games a whole lot simpler though.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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Starsplice wrote:
Pay [1 Bolt]. Target character must attack.

This effect forces a character to attack within the proper rules of the game. The effect DOES NOT force a character to attack outside of the rules.


Card text supersedes rules text.
It makes a character attack. The existing rules have nothing to do with it. If the card had said "field a character without paying its fielding cost", you would then field a character without paying its fielding cost even if the rules don't normally let you.


Starsplice wrote:
A character must attack: in the declare attackers step.

Nope, the card doesn't say that. It says a character must attack. And presumbaly if you "resolve the effect" without the character attacking then you haven't resolved the effect because the character hasn't attacked, which it must do. The card doesn't say to attack at a later time -- that's a house rule and/or personal interpretation that you are (correctly, I believe) adding in based on how you feel the card SHOULD work not on what it says or how the rules work.

I'm not saying your wrong - I think its the best way to resolve the effect. But let's be real -- it's not a strict interpretation of the game rules and card text. It's most likely how any errata will read though once its officially errata'd.

Starsplice wrote:
A character cannot declare an attack in any step outside of the declare attackers step.


Unless a card allows you to. Cards allow you to do all sorts of things you normally can't do like draw more dice or re-roll characters, and to do them at times outside the normal sequence such as Gambits ability to draw dice when fielded.

Starsplice wrote:
This effect does in no way force a character to attack AFTER attackers and blockers have been declared.

This effect can be used whenever global effects can be used, and whatever it says to do MUST BE DONE for the effect to resolve and continue onto resolving other effects.

Starsplice wrote:
If you are past the declare attackers and blockers then this effect is useless and you wasted energy on it.

That's a good house rule. But its just that. That's like saying Force Beam can only be used during the Assign Damage step because that's the only time damage is assigned in the rulebook. It's just not the way it works.

Starsplice wrote:
Common sense does not need to make house rules for this ability. Common sense reads the rule book and how the attack step(s) work and understands how this ability interacts with those rules.

You're on the losing side here. If the card rules conflict with the rulebook rules, the card rules supercede, and you are trying to dogmatically enforce rulebook rules. We need more clarification on how this card works, perhaps in a document that can't be trumped by card text such as a FAQ or errata.

Starsplice wrote:
When you use the global effect, it does indeed resolve immediately. A target character now MUST attack. The effect does NOT say the target attacks immediately, or target attacks now.

I think you're stretching this. You're saying anytime there's no time frame listed, the effect must occur at the next point in time when it would normally occur within the rules text?

So if all my Avengers have +1 A, that +1 doesn't kick in until the rules say they would normally gain a +1 A, which is never? No, I think in this case, if there's no time frame listed, then the effect occurs immediately. That is after all, what resolving an effect is. If I play an ability that gives all Agengers +1A, you are not going to say it doesn't apply because it doesn't say RIGHT NOW, it could mean in 5 turns from now. Should the word RIGHT NOW or WHEN RESOLVING THIS EFFECT be printed after every rule effect, or is that the default unless otherwise stated?


Starsplice wrote:
The effect says target must attack, so once the effect has been resolved,

The effect has not been resolved. Nothing has happened. You're saying that the opponent must simply promise to attack with that character to resolve the effect? What if he chooses to attack later, 5 turns from now? According to you, that seems to be legal because there's no timing element that says when he has to attack.

If you want to go with a strict by-the-rules ruling on this, then when an global effects says "target character MUST attack," I don't see how it can be resolved without the character attacking. Anything else is violating the rules on the card. Even if the character was somehow moved to the Used Pile or removed from the game, he must still attack.

Quote:
the target must attack within the game rules and at the first point it can legally attack.

Which is now, because a global effect says it can attack. Not only can it attack, it must.

Starsplice wrote:
Once the turn is over, this effect wears off per the cleanup step rules.

Another house rule? This effect doesn't need to "wear off". It's completely resolved instantly just like all global effects, with no lasting bonuses or penalties.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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deathhq wrote:
At least I understand where the confusion is stemming from now.

I agree that if activating the global ability to force a character to attack created an independent attack window where only that character had to attack immediately that would cause a whole ton of timing issues.

I honestly never even considered reading it this way. Thanks for the clarification.

I think if you stick with the timing rules as we are reading them it will make your games a whole lot simpler though.


I agree.
I have no doubt that this is how the official errata will eventually change it to.
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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lordrahvin wrote:
Starsplice wrote:
Pay [1 Bolt]. Target character must attack.

This effect forces a character to attack within the proper rules of the game. The effect DOES NOT force a character to attack outside of the rules.


Card text supersedes rules text.
It makes a character attack. The existing rules have nothing to do with it. If the card had said "field a character without paying its fielding cost", you would then field a character without paying its fielding cost even if the rules don't normally let you.


Starsplice wrote:
A character must attack: in the declare attackers step.

Nope, the card doesn't say that. It says a character must attack. And presumbaly if you "resolve the effect" without the character attacking then you haven't resolved the effect because the character hasn't attacked, which it must do. The card doesn't say to attack at a later time -- that's a house rule and/or personal interpretation that you are (correctly, I believe) adding in based on how you feel the card SHOULD work not on what it says or how the rules work.

I'm not saying your wrong - I think its the best way to resolve the effect. But let's be real -- it's not a strict interpretation of the game rules and card text. It's most likely how any errata will read though once its officially errata'd.

Starsplice wrote:
A character cannot declare an attack in any step outside of the declare attackers step.


Unless a card allows you to. Cards allow you to do all sorts of things you normally can't do like draw more dice or re-roll characters, and to do them at times outside the normal sequence such as Gambits ability to draw dice when fielded.

Starsplice wrote:
This effect does in no way force a character to attack AFTER attackers and blockers have been declared.

This effect can be used whenever global effects can be used, and whatever it says to do MUST BE DONE for the effect to resolve and continue onto resolving other effects.

Starsplice wrote:
If you are past the declare attackers and blockers then this effect is useless and you wasted energy on it.

That's a good house rule. But its just that. That's like saying Force Beam can only be used during the Assign Damage step because that's the only time damage is assigned in the rulebook. It's just not the way it works.

Starsplice wrote:
Common sense does not need to make house rules for this ability. Common sense reads the rule book and how the attack step(s) work and understands how this ability interacts with those rules.

You're on the losing side here. If the card rules conflict with the rulebook rules, the card rules supercede, and you are trying to dogmatically enforce rulebook rules. We need more clarification on how this card works, perhaps in a document that can't be trumped by card text such as a FAQ or errata.

Starsplice wrote:
When you use the global effect, it does indeed resolve immediately. A target character now MUST attack. The effect does NOT say the target attacks immediately, or target attacks now.

I think you're stretching this. You're saying anytime there's no time frame listed, the effect must occur at the next point in time when it would normally occur within the rules text?

So if all my Avengers have +1 A, that +1 doesn't kick in until the rules say they would normally gain a +1 A, which is never? No, I think in this case, if there's no time frame listed, then the effect occurs immediately. That is after all, what resolving an effect is. If I play an ability that gives all Agengers +1A, you are not going to say it doesn't apply because it doesn't say RIGHT NOW, it could mean in 5 turns from now. Should the word RIGHT NOW or WHEN RESOLVING THIS EFFECT be printed after every rule effect, or is that the default unless otherwise stated?


Starsplice wrote:
The effect says target must attack, so once the effect has been resolved,

The effect has not been resolved. Nothing has happened. You're saying that the opponent must simply promise to attack with that character to resolve the effect? What if he chooses to attack later, 5 turns from now? According to you, that seems to be legal because there's no timing element that says when he has to attack.

If you want to go with a strict by-the-rules ruling on this, then when an global effects says "target character MUST attack," I don't see how it can be resolved without the character attacking. Anything else is violating the rules on the card. Even if the character was somehow moved to the Used Pile or removed from the game, he must still attack.

Quote:
the target must attack within the game rules and at the first point it can legally attack.

Which is now, because a global effect says it can attack. Not only can it attack, it must.

Starsplice wrote:
Once the turn is over, this effect wears off per the cleanup step rules.

Another house rule? This effect doesn't need to "wear off". It's completely resolved instantly just like all global effects, with no lasting bonuses or penalties.


Wow. There are too many things here to respond to. Overall you are reading way too deep into this card. The effect says target must attack. This is obviously NOT immediately, otherwise the card would say "target character must attack immediately".

I am not making up house rules, nor am I trying to ignore the rules of the card supersedes rule book. The card says what it does. Target must attack. So here are the stipulations. Can the card actually attack? Yes or no. You have to look at the game state and how the card interacts with the game.

Your rules would allow a player to FORCE the attack step immediately (in the main step) because the effect was paid for and activated. This is not allowed and impossible. You have to use the ability within the boundaries of the game rules.

Card text supersedes rules text.
It makes a character attack. The existing rules have nothing to do with it. If the card had said "field a character without paying its fielding cost", you would then field a character without paying its fielding cost even if the rules don't normally let you.


This is wrong. Existing rules have everything to do with the basic framework of the game and how this card interacts with it. Also your example about fielding a character does not apply to this. Fielding a character without paying it's cost DOES NOT override the rules. Paying a cost is not overriding the main rules. It overrides the cost of fielding a character, or better yet it's a reduction to 0. The effect does NOT allow you to field a character outside of the main step. The effect follows the rules of the main rule book while reducing the cost of a character being fielded. There is a BIG difference, and the fact you don't understand that concerns me.

You are saying that a character MUST attack IMMEDIATELY. The card text does not say that. The card text does not infer that. You are reading the card wrong and interpreting the rules wrong. The card says the target must attack.
- Can a character attack in the main step? No (must wait until declare attackers)
- Can a global ability be activated during declare attackers? No
- Can a global ability be activated during declare blockers? No
- Can a new character attack after attackers/defenders have been declared? No

So the character has to follow the rules of the game to become a legal attacker. Which means you have to use this ability in the main step BEFORE ATTACKERS ARE DECLARED.

"This is how we house-ruled it as well, and I think its the best way to rule it" and "my friends and I house-ruled this card based on what we feel". These are not how you discuss rules. You need to discuss mechanics and interactions and find resolution, not discuss feelings and common beliefs amongst local players.

You also can't say a card's text overrides the base rules unless the card says so. This card does not say so. It says target character must attack. That's it. It doesn't activate an attack, it doesn't bring a new attacker into battle, it doesn't get activated while the opponent is declaring blockers. It gets activated either in main step or after attackers/blockers have been declared. The effect does what it says and that's it.
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Tim Ford
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I would say any card that is going to override the rules would have to do so very explicitly.

IE in this case Phoenix would have to say:

(energy cost): Target character attacks immediately in it's own attack phase. Return to main phase when this attack concludes.

Or something to that effect. There's no reason they couldn't do something like this if they wanted to but there's way too much interpretation on our part if it did work like that as it is currently worded.

If a card is going to mess around with the basic structure of the game by forcing an attack phase mid main phase (without providing other details - can other dice attack with it? is there a declare blockers step for this attack?) it would have to be pretty specific in how it's worded.
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ICE 0ne
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if they had intended the ability to make the target immediately attack they would have worded it like distraction and move the character to the attack zone.
 
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paul sanchez
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i agree with jon
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John Galietta III
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Me too. There are several cards in this game that have added reminder text, where cards with identical abilities did not. We have the same situation here where other cards say "Pay X: Target must attack this turn." But others simply say "Pay X: Target must attack.". If a card meant to completely disrupt the rules and the flow of gameplay by adding in a new temporary phase (i.e. immediately attack) it would state that on the card in detail.
 
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