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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Newbie Game, Player Elimination, and Victory Questions rss

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Jason Hagerty
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So me and my 3 other roommates are in the middle of our first game of TI3, and we're really enjoying it! That being said, I've found myself in a bit of a rule bind...

I'm playing as the Mentak and made the quickest be-line to VP I could, putting me at 8 VP currently while everyone else is at 5 or less. Fearing my victory, the other 3 players teamed up against me and threw everything they had against me, War Suns and all, and have wiped all of my units off the board (I was spread pretty thin to get all those VP, a rookie mistake it would seem).

That being said, I still have 4 planets under my control and will be drawing the Imperial SC next round (We are using just the base game for now and no optional rules). I've read the FAQ regarding elimination, and have noticed a lot of people saying an eliminated player can't win. What I haven't seen, however, is anything official stating that's true. The rules are very specific about what a player does when they are eliminated, yet does not say they cannot win. If there's an official ruling on this, can anyone link it?

My other concern stems from the fact that an eliminated player is stated as being unable to CHOOSE SCs or PLAY ACs; but the rules say nothing in regards to PLAYING SCs you already have. Meaning, since they will be unable to eliminate me before the next strat phase (in which I'll pick up the Imperial Card and the remaining 2 VP I need), is there anything preventing me from cashing that in ASAP? What if they DO eliminate my remaining (defenseless) planets before my turn comes up? Can I still play my current SC cards?

I suppose a great deal of this stems from the question of when, exactly, a player is eliminated. At the end of the turn they lose everything on, or at the end of the Game Round? After all, would it not be possible for me to gain units and come back into the game? Take for example the card that forces the VP leader to donate a planet to the losing player, would it not be possible for a wining player (say in a game with 3 players at 9 VP) to donate a planet (and 3 GF) to the Eliminated Player, thus allowing him into the game and perhaps to victory somehow?

I realize these are a lot of "what-ifs?", but with these kind of games the devil is usually in the details. And I'd just like to make sure we have it right going forward...
 
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Not to be overly pedantic, but let's define 'eliminate'. Dictionary.com states multiple definitions, of course, but the most pertinent would be number 3: "to remove from further consideration or competition, especially by defeating in a contest". Key point: remove from further consideration.

So in your hypothetical situation, they could not donate to an eliminated player because that player would no longer be in the game. Kind of the definition of 'eliminated'.

If you have the chance to play your SC before the last of your planets is destroyed, you would still win (very un-thematic, but a win's a win).

If they conquer your last planets before that point, however, then you have been eliminated. Reasonably speaking, elimination happens at the point when you no longer have any belongings on the board.

Don't know if Corey has made a ruling here somewhere, but thematically trying to argue that a race which has been effectively exterminated and utterly destroyed as a power in the galaxy would somehow be crowned the rulers doesn't make sense.
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Martin DeOlden
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If you have planets then you are not eliminated. You can still activate a system and build a Space Dock with those planetary resources.

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Jason Hagerty
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My problem with this sort of thinking, is that it doesn't apply to games like this. You can't just pull the definition of a word and apply it to a game however you want. The game goes out of its way to provide definitions for what a "friend" or "enemy" is, regardless of your current alliances or the meaning of the words outside of the game. The same could be said of reinforcements; which would typically be described as people waiting to assist someone. But in the game, your reinforcements don't exist until you build them, they are not in fact waiting somewhere.

This is why it matters so much what the game defines as "eliminated". Which is to say, they are a player who cannot pick up SCs, cannot play ACs, and loses all current ACs and trade agreements. Per the games definition, an eliminated player could still technically PLAY SCs if they had some from the beginning of the round, and can still win or gain units or whatnot...
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Jason Hagerty
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Jasonco2 wrote:
My problem with this sort of thinking, is that it doesn't apply to games like this. You can't just pull the definition of a word and apply it to a game however you want. The game goes out of its way to provide definitions for what a "friend" or "enemy" is, regardless of your current alliances or the meaning of the words outside of the game. The same could be said of reinforcements; which would typically be described as people waiting to assist someone. But in the game, your reinforcements don't exist until you build them, they are not in fact waiting somewhere.

This is why it matters so much what the game defines as "eliminated". Which is to say, they are a player who cannot pick up SCs, cannot play ACs, and loses all current ACs and trade agreements. Per the games definition, an eliminated player could still technically PLAY SCs if they had some from the beginning of the round, and can still win or gain units or whatnot...


OK, just ignore my previous posts, as I've answered this for myself.

Upon closer inspection to the wording in the FAQ, it would seem that it clearly states that "After a player has been eliminated, the other players continue the game normally." Which is to say, the Eliminated player DOES NOT CONTINUE THE GAME normally. And since the "normal" rules of the game are required in order to play SCs or achieve victory, the Eliminated player is not allowed to take those actions or participate in the continuing game in any way. I suppose the rules don't forbid them from continuing the game abnormally, but that isn't going to help them at all. In essence, their game STOPS at their Elimination (which does, indeed, make the most sense).

Looks like the Mentak Coalition will be begging for their lives when we continue! Oh well, such is the reality of war. Sorry for the hassle everyone, carry on!
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bob mackenzie
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find out what counts as being eliminated as ur answer. never had it occur as all our games never had elimination. i would say that elimination occurs when no units and planets are owned by u. hard decision, not sure what i would rule haha.
 
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Heath Stockburn
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As a general rule for future rule problems:

If a rulebook does not explain what it means by a particular word then the writer is using the natural, dictionary definition of the word.

If a writer wants a word or action to apply in a particular way or context then the desired effect is usually illustrated at great lengths for players to learn. Example in point: Netrunner.

That said I am sure there are some really bad rulebooks out there that are as clear as a sky over Lancashire.

e·lim·i·nate [ih-lim-uh-neyt]


verb (used with object), e·lim·i·nat·ed, e·lim·i·nat·ing.

1. to remove or get rid of, especially as being in some way undesirable: to eliminate risks; to eliminate hunger. Synonyms: do away with, banish, abolish, eradicate, erase, exterminate, cut out, annihilate, weed out, stamp out, rub out. Antonyms: obtain, get, invite.


2. to omit, especially as being unimportant or irrelevant; leave out: I have eliminated all statistical tables, which are of interest only to the specialist. Synonyms: throw out, exclude, drop, delete, except. Antonyms: include, accept, admit, incorporate.


3. to remove from further consideration or competition, especially by defeating in a contest.


4. to eradicate or kill: to eliminate the enemy.


5. Physiology . to void or expel from an organism

 
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The way i read it is this.

currently you are not eliminated. You control 4 planets.

You will get to pick a SC, so lets assume you get imperial (there are action card that can keep you from getting it.)

Also you should be picking 2 SC so you may also end up with an early turn (like by getting imperial and diplomacy for example.

As soon as it is your turn, if you have not lost any of your planets, you can play the imperial SC and win the game by getting 2 VP. You get these points from the card, not by claiming objectives so the game would end immediately.

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