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Subject: Question regarding laying rails costs and cancelation rss

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Daniel Hogetoorn
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In the rules it's written that you have to strictly follow the order of the effects on the card. So, if I play the Tunnel and I would like to lay rails on mountains, do I need to have the money for that in front of me before I put my rail token? Only at the end of the text it says that the costs are nullified. Is this correct?
 
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Mikko Saari
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No, not that strict. When you play the card and follow the order of the effects, you get one rail-laying action, which you can then use after you've read the card completely.
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Daniel Hogetoorn
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OK, thanks!
 
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Daniel Hogetoorn
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Hmmm, I start to understand things better now. So does this mean that when I play for example first the Tunnel and then the Steel Bridge, I could place 2 rails tokens on fields with a river without paying additional costs?
 
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Mikko Saari
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Yes.
 
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Russell Howell                (What's Right?) (What's Wrong?)        
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DeDaan wrote:
Hmmm, I start to understand things better now. So does this mean that when I play for example first the Tunnel and then the Steel Bridge, I could place 2 rails tokens on fields with a river without paying additional costs?

msaari wrote:
Yes.


I'm sorry, I am going to have to disagree, here.

You lay rails one at a time. Cards are played one at a time.

Money to be paid by the end of a card must already be down on the table (e.g. If a lay rails action will cost you 1, you must have played a card with at least a value of one before playing the Lay Rails card. If a Steel Bridge allows you to lay a rail for free on a river, then you do not need money on the table).

In the order that you asked about with the two lay rail cards (Tunnels and Steel Bridge), you play the first card and then would be allowed to lay a rail in a mountain for free, but not a river. With the playing of the second card, you would be allowed to lay a rail in either a mountain or a river for free as these cards powers transfer to all future lay rails cards played this turn. The proper order to lay rails on two river spaces for free would have been the steel bridge first, then the tunnels card (or any other lay rails card for that matter).

If you play a card and do not take its action immediately, then play another card, you can not go back and use the skipped action.

 
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Mikko Saari
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Russell, do note that the card effect is not "Lay 1 rail", but "Gain 1 point of rail laying". So, you can play both cards, and then use your two points of rail laying.

Just like in Dominion: if you get +1 action, you don't have to use it immediately at that moment, but instead it goes to your bank of available actions. What you do immediately is to add that action to your bank. It's the same with the rail laying in Trains.

I don't remember the exact wording of the Steel Bridge card, but at least Tunnel works like this.
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Russell Howell                (What's Right?) (What's Wrong?)        
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msaari wrote:
Russell, do note that the card effect is not "Lay 1 rail", but "Gain 1 point of rail laying". So, you can play both cards, and then use your two points of rail laying.

Just like in Dominion: if you get +1 action, you don't have to use it immediately at that moment, but instead it goes to your bank of available actions. What you do immediately is to add that action to your bank. It's the same with the rail laying in Trains.

I don't remember the exact wording of the Steel Bridge card, but at least Tunnel works like this.



Mikko,

Again, I respectfully disagree. Actions and effects are not stored. You must complete the card, and only that card, as it is played. The money is banked, but any action on that card, not taken immediately and completely, is lost.


From the rules - page 6 wrote:
You cannot “save” the effect of a played card for later.
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Mikko Saari
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Yes, it seems you're correct. The rules are pretty vague on this, and I don't know why they talk of getting "1 point worth of rail laying" if you can't store the points, since nothing requires two points of rail laying. That's just misleading.
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Daniel Hogetoorn
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Thanks a lot to both of you. So in fact it means that you get 1 railpoint to use directly after the card is played. It's still important to mention that since you don't have to lay the rails before applying the discount. However, you need to lay the rails before playing the next card. Right?
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Mikko Saari
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Yes, you definitely get the discount for the rail you lay with the card itself (and for all future rail lays on the same turn).

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Guy Riessen
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badgeguy wrote:

If you play a card and do not take its action immediately, then play another card, you can not go back and use the skipped action.



This is a related question which is imply not being answered (answers are given but not to the question!) in the Trains:Rising Sun folder.

Interchange is a card in Rising Sun which reads Draw 1 card, Discard 1 card, Lay Rails, Take Waste.

If you draw a coin during Interchange, can you lay it down for its coin value (only coin--not using any actions on the card) immediately in order to use the Lay Rails to enter a hex that was previously too expensive?
 
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Charles Zhang
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Sprydle wrote:


This is a related question which is imply not being answered (answers are given but not to the question!) in the Trains:Rising Sun folder.

Interchange is a card in Rising Sun which reads Draw 1 card, Discard 1 card, Lay Rails, Take Waste.

If you draw a coin during Interchange, can you lay it down for its coin value (only coin--not using any actions on the card) immediately in order to use the Lay Rails to enter a hex that was previously too expensive?


I believe so. The rules state that the lay rails gives you one rail to lay this turn, but it doesn't have to be immediately during the resolution of the card.
 
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Mark Levine
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I asked AEG about rail laying points - here's the response I got:

AEG Customer Service wrote:
Your interpretation of the card looks correct to me--the rail laying points do function the same as money; you can spend as many or as few of them as you'd like, at whatever point in your turn.


So, for an example where the order doesn't matter - you can play the Tunnel and the green card that lets you build where other people are without additional/cost and waste, and build twice on Mountains with other players without any extra cost/waste [though you still get the two waste on the green cards].

And with respect to Interchange, TheRedComet is correct - you can play cards for their coin value, and use actions on cards.
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Phil Allcock
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badgeguy wrote:
msaari wrote:
Russell, do note that the card effect is not "Lay 1 rail", but "Gain 1 point of rail laying". So, you can play both cards, and then use your two points of rail laying.

Just like in Dominion: if you get +1 action, you don't have to use it immediately at that moment, but instead it goes to your bank of available actions. What you do immediately is to add that action to your bank. It's the same with the rail laying in Trains.

I don't remember the exact wording of the Steel Bridge card, but at least Tunnel works like this.



Mikko,

Again, I respectfully disagree. Actions and effects are not stored. You must complete the card, and only that card, as it is played. The money is banked, but any action on that card, not taken immediately and completely, is lost.


From the rules - page 6 wrote:
You cannot “save” the effect of a played card for later.


Respectfully again, look more closely. The full paragraph on page 6 says "Action cards' effects must be applied immediately or not at all. You cannot "save" the effect of a played card for later." The second sentence there is IMHO clearly meant to apply to ACTION cards i.e red cards. Lay Rails cards are not action cards and laying rails is neither an action nor an effect.

Which is why, again IMHO, the "gain one point of rail laying (to place a marker on the board this turn)" is written as it is. Rail laying is more like money - you accumulate or spend "points of rail-laying" through your turn as you play cards but you can do it whenever you like (and any bonuses gained from Steel Bridges, Tunnels etc are cumulative and can be applied to all building that turn. Any unspent rail-laying is then lost at the end of your turn.

That's my reading, anyway!
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I am just now getting into the game, and really enjoying the core mechanics a ton but trying to work through some of the finer points of the rules. I feel like it's a huge issue whether you accumulate rail or have to spend it immediately, especially with cards like Interchange.

Though I think it went against many initial inclinations, it's settled that rail just accumulates like coins, yes? I noticed that Station Expansions do not accumulate, so it really is just an "over email" kind of rule which is why I'm confirming (I do very much appreciate the poster for getting an answer -- I play NR so while they are not ideal I am used to email/Twitter rulings).

Feel like this should go in the FAQ.
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soulblight
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AstroLad wrote:
I noticed that Station Expansions do not accumulate


Where did you see that? I would think that Station Expansion cards would work the same way as Lay Rails... do the rules say points of Station Expanding don't accumulate?
 
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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somaluna wrote:
AstroLad wrote:
I noticed that Station Expansions do not accumulate


Where did you see that? I would think that Station Expansion cards would work the same way as Lay Rails... do the rules say points of Station Expanding don't accumulate?


Thread revival, but for posterity and future lookers, this is all incorrect.

Play the card, take its action. Per the rules. IMMEDIATELY.

The Tunnel card (or other discount card) ONLY applies to the rail laid FOR THAT CARD, it doesn't give you a discount for ALL rails laid in the turn.

The rules and the example of play make this very clear. Not sure how this whole "banking" rails and stations misinformation cropped up but I bet it's confused many innocent gamers looking at this forum. shake

The AEG rep comment above doesn't come across as a confident authoritative answer in the least, but someone just "guessing". A ruling from the designer would carry weight, but not the guess of someone via the internet.
 
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Mark Levine
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klkitchens wrote:
somaluna wrote:
AstroLad wrote:
I noticed that Station Expansions do not accumulate


Where did you see that? I would think that Station Expansion cards would work the same way as Lay Rails... do the rules say points of Station Expanding don't accumulate?


Thread revival, but for posterity and future lookers, this is all incorrect.

Play the card, take its action. Per the rules. IMMEDIATELY.

The Tunnel card (or other discount card) ONLY applies to the rail laid FOR THAT CARD, it doesn't give you a discount for ALL rails laid in the turn.

The rules and the example of play make this very clear. Not sure how this whole "banking" rails and stations misinformation cropped up but I bet it's confused many innocent gamers looking at this forum. shake

The AEG rep comment above doesn't come across as a confident authoritative answer in the least, but someone just "guessing". A ruling from the designer would carry weight, but not the guess of someone via the internet.


Leaving aside the rest of it, the example specifically says "Lastly you gain the effect that laying rails on mountains this turn costs nothing
extra.", and the clock icon is specifically defined as an until end of turn effect. If you play a tunnel and then a lay rails, the discount certainly applies to both.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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KoolKow wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
somaluna wrote:
AstroLad wrote:
I noticed that Station Expansions do not accumulate


Where did you see that? I would think that Station Expansion cards would work the same way as Lay Rails... do the rules say points of Station Expanding don't accumulate?


Thread revival, but for posterity and future lookers, this is all incorrect.

Play the card, take its action. Per the rules. IMMEDIATELY.

The Tunnel card (or other discount card) ONLY applies to the rail laid FOR THAT CARD, it doesn't give you a discount for ALL rails laid in the turn.

The rules and the example of play make this very clear. Not sure how this whole "banking" rails and stations misinformation cropped up but I bet it's confused many innocent gamers looking at this forum. shake

The AEG rep comment above doesn't come across as a confident authoritative answer in the least, but someone just "guessing". A ruling from the designer would carry weight, but not the guess of someone via the internet.


Leaving aside the rest of it, the example specifically says "Lastly you gain the effect that laying rails on mountains this turn costs nothing
extra.", and the clock icon is specifically defined as an until end of turn effect. If you play a tunnel and then a lay rails, the discount certainly applies to both.


I stand corrected on the "effect" with the clock icon last until the end of turn. It's also in the rules. (THANK YOU!)

But as the Lay Rails does NOT have that option, it's not "saved" per se... so you'd play tunnel, lay rails immediately (not saved), but the other cost-savings DOES last until the end of the turn as noted. Then if you play another lay rails on the same turn, then clearly you'd get the cost savings.

Either way the rules are clear that the effects take place immediately.
 
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soulblight
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klkitchens wrote:
Either way the rules are clear that the effects take place immediately.


They are for action cards, but Lay Rails cards are not action cards.
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