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Subject: So, what's the state of this game? rss

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Steve G.
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I keep hearing that this game is basically incomplete. The rules don't cover many situations, and it's possible to wind up in encounters where you need more monsters than the base game provides. So, what's the real deal here? How bad are the problems really? How much work is it going to take to make it play smoothly?

My copy's still in the shrink-wrap. Need to decide if it's a keep or a trade.
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Colin West
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are you a ks backer or did you purchase retail?
 
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Matthew
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The game is not incomplete, and is completely playable out of the box.

Some of the game modes (namely Slaughterfield) require a high number of figures that do not come in the box. While that seems contradictory to the above sentiment, the game was designed to be expandable, and the designers included a lot of rules and previews to future expansions and modules that aren't out yet. Some people don't like that the designers are planning for a future with Myth, and will say that the game is literally missing pieces. It isn't (though if your copy is, in fact, missing pieces, contact MCG; they're pretty good with customer relations).

The rules are atrocious. That simply can't be overstated. The game, once you understand it, is incredibly simple to play and pretty immersive, but actually understanding the rules is a major hurdle. The best example when learning Myth would be to compare it to a tabletop RPG; the rulebook is really big for the kind of game that it is, and the game was designed with player's homerules in mind in order to keep the game fun for each gaming group that played it (like most tabletop RPG's). Though, to any other RPG's credit, those rulebooks are pretty well written.

There's about 30 hours of campaign based play included with the rulebook and components for the game, which isn't bad, and there's more than enough in here for you to create your own custom Story Quests and campaigns. What MCG calls Free-Form Questing (i.e. not playing a Story Quest) can seem aimless at times, due to the free-form nature of the game itself.

TL;DR Version: This game is a great investment and purchase if you're a big fan of dungeon crawls, just be prepared to invest some time to learn the rules as well. Totally playable out of the box, but you'll need some supplemental material to really learn how to play the game.
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Brent Lloyd
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I recommend you open it and try for yourself, it is a unique game.

Matthew above has it all correct.

Peace
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Mathue Faulkner
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http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1153672/a-positively-realist...

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Matt Shinners
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As a counterpoint, I'm selling my copy because:

1) Rules/cards - It's like someone who failed 4th-grade English wrote them. Not only are they incomplete, they're riddled with spelling and grammar errors. The cards aren't streamlined in any way whatsoever. They did a first pass to make the cards do what they wanted them to do, then didn't do a second pass to clean up the language or ensure that other people would be able to interpret them correctly. Or they did multiple passes and are terrible at it. Add to that the fact that some very basic things are missing from the book, and the 9-page FAQ and walkthrough still don't cover everything, and you have an untenable situation. Sure, you can cobble together a game here, but that shouldn't be your first 3-5 hours with a game. I've spent less time getting into RPGs.

2) Materials - Gorgeous. They nailed the miniatures.

3) Company - I lost faith in MCG's ability to fix their problems and deal with customers who were critical of them. The documents they released to fix the documents in the game are still poorly edited. And when confronted with these issues, MCG decided to ignore the people who were critical and instead retreat to the places where everyone was just slathering praise on them.

4) Gameplay - Nothing special. Some interesting ideas, but nothing revolutionary. Some decisions are bad ("loitering" obviously doesn't work as intended; item progression is awful), and the entire system seems like it was only half-baked (could have used a few more passes to make sure that everything did what they wanted it to do).

5) Value - KS got a deal (after wave 2 ships). Everyone else will be paying a ton of money for those extra minis to make it so you don't have to make decisions based on a lack of figures/have to use proxies or tokens.

Overall, I think that MCG was trying to make a fantasy miniatures game where you played against an 'AI' instead of another player. I base this on their experience in Mercs, and how I feel the system plays out. The issue is that, in Mercs, you have an opponent who is going to balance the system out and make decision that make sense for them. Here, the players make these decisions for the game, which then mindlessly fights back.

The fact that this isn't really adding anything to the dungeon crawl genre (and is at least as much work as an RPG, which has more freedom), and my frustrations with the company, means that selling is the right decision for me. Others, as you have seen, will disagree. I would caution, though, that most of the people who have a negative opinion of the game seem to have left the forum because of the treatment they received by those who think MCG can do no wrong, so this isn't the best place to get a balanced opinion. Personally, I would recommend reading Mathue's positive review, as I think it's the most even-handed in its praise. If the things he notes as capturing his imagination would do the same to yours, keep it. If they don't, sell it.
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Marcus Taylor
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The minis and artwork are beautiful. The basic concept is intriguing.

The rulebook is an atrocity. Be prepared to spend a dozen hours looking at videos or PDFs to try and work out how to play. The rules were not playtested or edited in any way.

The game itself is intriguing but full of silly rules that seem to actively prevent you from trying to have fun. You'll have to house rule a lot anyway, so you'll actually be better off if you make your own rules up. It's more like a DIY boardgame kit than a real game.

Despite what the apologists will tell you, the base game IS incomplete. About half the quests are useable, and there's not enough minis to play some of the game modes. If I wanted to proxy minis, why did I buy this again? You can get around this issue but it's frustrating.

MCG's customer service is dreadful - they run and hide when things go wrong (and they go wrong a lot) and cannot accept criticism.

Finally, 'Wave 2' is either missing or was never made in the first place, depending on how charitable you want to be towards MCG. My guess is that we won't see a thing until 2015 at the earliest.

So that's the 'state of the game'.

I'm sorry to say it's not pretty.
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Amanda Kopet
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I bought a retail copy, and can pretty much agree with everything that has been stated previously. I've played a bit knowing I was leaving things out and doing things wrong and it seems like there can be a fun game inside. You're just going to need to put in mountains of work, but I think it will be worth it in the long run.
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Nathan Dennis
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Marcus the Ready wrote:


Finally, 'Wave 2' is either missing or was never made in the first place, depending on how charitable you want to be towards MCG. My guess is that we won't see a thing until 2015 at the earliest.


I'm curious has there been any pictures of any of the wave 2 mini's .. from what I read they got some but were shortened one crate .. so there should be at least some pictures of wave 2 minis ...
 
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Martin Gallo
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In summary, the state of this game appears to be confusion.
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Hank B
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I'm not sure how anyone, in good faith, can recommend this game. Unless you recommend it to your sworn enemy in hopes that he is driven mad trying to get the game to work.
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Remi Bureau
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I'll try to answer OP as objectively as possible. What's the state of the game?

Rules
Are the rules perfect? : No
Are they as bad as some make them to be? : No
Are additional online document required? : Yes
Will you have to house rule some things as you go? : Yes
Is McG trying to fix things? : Yes

Components
Do you have enough minis for every possible scenario? : No
Would that be possible? : No
Should there be a couple more minis included? : Yes
Should some cards be revised? : Yes
Will they be? : Yes
Should chapter quests be easier to insert in the game (make more sense given the situation)? : Yes
Should there be less SlaughterField quests? : Yes

The game
Is it playable? : Yes
Is it fun? : Subjective, Yes
How much time should be invested before first game? : About 6 hours
How long is it to teach to a new player? : About 30 minutes

My opinion
I think they would have gained from more playtesting and/or public beta rules. Public beta of games like this are hard because you'd usually need the game components in front of you.
I don't own any of their other games so I don't know how these rules compare, but there is a lot of room for improvement, and having limited resources and working on a new game while a ton of comments/questions are asked about this one seems to be too much.
Would I have prefer they fixed everything in this game first before moving on to their new one? : Yes

The rulebook is the biggest problem with this game, not the rules themselves. There might be done you don't like and you will change, but most are solid.

Not having enough minis some times isn't all that bad, you can proxy what's missing. What's "not great" is when you play in SF mode and you must proxy minis for the spawn of wave 2. Aside from SF, I think I've proxied minis twice so far.

Hope this helps in your decision.
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Remi Bureau
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JimbobJones wrote:

Putting out an FAQ which is 95% the Unofficial FAQ put together by BGG (mostly Endevor, who is awesome) and a "quick start" guide is a quick band-aid fix. (Why those things took a month to come out is a good question, but I'll leave that alone). But still not enough to convince me that MCG are working on anything but putting together more ways to separate people from their money.


That's what I mean by : do I wish they had fixed this before moving on to Recon.

That being said, I'm sure they'll continue to support the game and release additional documentation. And I get that you're not as optimistic as me but it would only make financial sense that they do. Future expansions will bring in a lot of money if they do.

And regarding the cards, nothing is broken there, only comprehension info will be changed (at least I think), and every company doing this usually only errata the cards, which McG will do, but they'll also give you a chance to buy them at cost if you wish.
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Remi Bureau
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Though it's not the same size of company, I think they could learn from Paizo for community support though.
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Greg Von Chicken Pants
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steveg700 wrote:
I keep hearing that this game is basically incomplete. The rules don't cover many situations, and it's possible to wind up in encounters where you need more monsters than the base game provides. So, what's the real deal here? How bad are the problems really? How much work is it going to take to make it play smoothly?

My copy's still in the shrink-wrap. Need to decide if it's a keep or a trade.


The game is a lot of fun. It's a cross between tactics/DnD and role playing.

The game feels heavy; but actually is pretty light once you grasp it. New players learn the mechanics very quickly. My friends wife learned it within the first tile; while playing the Brigand (probably the most confusing of the heroes) and liked it enough to specifically request it next boardgaming. She's not an RPG'er or really much of a board gamer outside of Cards Against Humanity.

The rules are written by someone, who i believe may have dyslexia. The writing is constantly 'off' but in the same direction, if that makes any sense.

I love the co-op play; and the way it defeats alpha gamerism is notable. Pandamic makes me just want to watch a movie and have the rest of the team tell me if we win.

There should have been 16 orcs/spiders. It's not the end of the world; usually you only need to proxy them for a single turn/action before killing enough devil

Personally i think the amount of learning time is being exaggerated. You need to read the rule book and then the FAQ. I'm not proud of this but it took me longer to get Keyflower starting from scratch. *

*excepting traps; those are just .. gulp
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Matt Shinners
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Papathunder wrote:

The game is a lot of fun. It's a cross between tactics/DnD and role playing.


And I think that's my primary issue - it doesn't do either of them particularly well, resulting in a game that reminds me I'd rather be playing something else. The RPG elements are, to me, unfulfilling, leading me to want to play an RPG. And, ironically, it's easier to get into most RPGs than Myth, including the cost. A starter box of the major RPGs gets you right in the game.

And if I want a tactics game, I'll play a better one that doesn't have so many "game"-y elements to it.

And if I want a tactics/RPG, I'll play D&D4E.

Other than convey the rules using the written materials, I don't think the game does anything poorly (though I do dislike some of the game elements). I just think it's not nearly as good as things I already have. Except the miniatures, which, again, are gorgeous.
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Greg Von Chicken Pants
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MattShinners wrote:
Papathunder wrote:

The game is a lot of fun. It's a cross between tactics/DnD and role playing.


And I think that's my primary issue - it doesn't do either of them particularly well, resulting in a game that reminds me I'd rather be playing something else. The RPG elements are, to me, unfulfilling, leading me to want to play an RPG. And, ironically, it's easier to get into most RPGs than Myth, including the cost. A starter box of the major RPGs gets you right in the game.

And if I want a tactics game, I'll play a better one that doesn't have so many "game"-y elements to it.

And if I want a tactics/RPG, I'll play D&D4E.

Other than convey the rules using the written materials, I don't think the game does anything poorly (though I do dislike some of the game elements). I just think it's not nearly as good as things I already have. Except the miniatures, which, again, are gorgeous.


I feel where you're coming from. For me and my group we like the weight of the game in relation to our other choices.

DnD is a much more complex and rich experience than any Co-op will ever be. But it requires an adversarial set up; and a huge investment (not $$) by one of the players.

Different stroke for different folks no doubt =D
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Matt Shinners
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Papathunder wrote:

Different stroke for different folks no doubt =D


Oh, completely. While I think the cards/rules are objectively terrible, I don't think the game is. It's just not the right balance for me and my group. I have no issues with those who do enjoy the game for what it is! I actually wish I was one of them - I'd love to be able to justify keeping it, but I can't when I can sell it for several hundred dollars and all I'd use it for are the minis.
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Marcus Taylor
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MattShinners wrote:

Oh, completely. While I think the cards/rules are objectively terrible, I don't think the game is. It's just not the right balance for me and my group. I have no issues with those who do enjoy the game for what it is! I actually wish I was one of them - I'd love to be able to justify keeping it, but I can't when I can sell it for several hundred dollars and all I'd use it for are the minis.


I shall persevere.

My enjoyment of the game sky-rocketed when I realised I just didn't care what MCG meant the rules to be, and decided I would make my own rules using their cool components.

But I really need Wave 2, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

And I still really hate MCG's poor service to their customers, and will continue to call them on this. It's almost a textbook 'how not to do things'.




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Mathue Faulkner
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Papathunder wrote:

Personally i think the amount of learning time is being exaggerated. You need to read the rule book and then the FAQ.

Keep in mind that there wasn't a FAQ until many struggled through the rules and attempted gaming sessions...

Believe me. It was a lot more difficult when the game first landed on the doorstep.
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Erik Isch
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I am a retail buy guy. Wished I Ks. It's an awesome game. Rules had issues but I downloaded the latest version and had no problems with it.
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Tyler Tinsley
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The game is playable and fun. It is difficult to learn it from the rule book alone so use the new walk through and keep the FAQ handy. If those factors scare you off then don't buy it.

 
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John Middleton
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What I don't understand about Myth, or any other fantasy boardgame in truth, is why people claim they are RPGs or RPG-lite.

In a Role-Playing Game, you interact with other characters by voice acting a scene. Your roleplay has a DIRECT impact on the outcome, and is not just flavor.

You haggle with the innkeeper about drinks and a room.

You try to persuade the King that you need more than 100 gold each to attempt to rescue his daughter.

You can bargain with the Kobold captain for his hostages, rather than slay them all.


In any boardgame, none of this exists. You don't actually ever role play.

I think many confuse playing a storyline with playing in character.

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Yaeu Li
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DegenerateElite wrote:
What I don't understand about Myth, or any other fantasy boardgame in truth, is why people claim they are RPGs or RPG-lite.

In a Role-Playing Game, you interact with other characters by voice acting a scene. Your roleplay has a DIRECT impact on the outcome, and is not just flavor.

You haggle with the innkeeper about drinks and a room.

You try to persuade the King that you need more than 100 gold each to attempt to rescue his daughter.

You can bargain with the Kobold captain for his hostages, rather than slay them all.


In any boardgame, none of this exists. You don't actually ever role play.

I think many confuse playing a storyline with playing in character.



I think the term RPG has come to mean something far broader these days. I'm not convinced there is a clear delineation between what is and isn't considered an RPG. To some extent, the amount of Roleplay is up to the players involved.

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Shakka
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I am in two p&p rpg grps, and i know perfectly what you mean.

The "rpg-element" here is you play a hero, with skills different from the other heroes.
You play in a group, you have a goal to achieve together, you find some loot, etc ...

Its more like diablo or something like that.

All the "real" roleplaying stuff can only be do in a real rpg, where someone takes the role of the "other guys".

I dont think any boardgame or even computer game can ever do this.

For my gaming group Myth seems perfect (if it ever arrives) (i like the wording on the german cards more, too) - often not every p&p group member has time (we all have jobs), often the gamemasters didnt have enough time to prepare well, often we are just exhausted from job and want something lighter than p&p to play.

Shakka
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