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Subject: Komainu question rss

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Jonny G
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I am wondering about Komainu and multiple encounters.
If a runner hits this with 3 cards in hand, breaks all 3 subroutines, and then hits a Cell Portal, will this gain another 3 subroutines for a total of 6?

This would be an easy kill using Komainu , whirlpool, and Cell portal.
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Alejandro G.
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gawbo005 wrote:
I am wondering about Komainu and multiple encounters.
If a runner hits this with 3 cards in hand, breaks all 3 subroutines, and then hits a Cell Portal, will this gain another 3 subroutines for a total of 6?

This would be an easy kill using Komainu , whirlpool, and Cell portal.


No. You would hit the ice again and still have 3 subroutines to break.
 
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Paul Case
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"Easy" assuming you can get all three of those ice in that order, which is not easy, but otherwise yes, it would go up to 6 routines in your case, due to the "remainder of the run" text.
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Ian Neufeld
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
gawbo005 wrote:
I am wondering about Komainu and multiple encounters.
If a runner hits this with 3 cards in hand, breaks all 3 subroutines, and then hits a Cell Portal, will this gain another 3 subroutines for a total of 6?

This would be an easy kill using Komainu , whirlpool, and Cell portal.


No. You would hit the ice again and still have 3 subroutines to break.


Actually, Komainu says "for the remainder of this run" and does not stipulate that it's on first encounter, so yes it should.

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Chris Wood
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Yes, but if the runner doesn't break the subs the first time (going to 0 cards) then it's just a race to see who runes out of money first, the corp rezzing whirlpool or the runner breaking the X subroutines, where X was how many cards were in his hand the first encounter.
 
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Louis Schiffer
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
gawbo005 wrote:
I am wondering about Komainu and multiple encounters.
If a runner hits this with 3 cards in hand, breaks all 3 subroutines, and then hits a Cell Portal, will this gain another 3 subroutines for a total of 6?

This would be an easy kill using Komainu , whirlpool, and Cell portal.


No. You would hit the ice again and still have 3 subroutines to break.


I don't follow its says that "When the Runner encounters Komainu its gains "~~~~" for each card in the runners grip for the remained of the run."

If you cell portal that means you would encounter it again and it would gain X subroutines (X being cards in hands). However there is nothing that would cause it to loss the subroutines from the first encounter, nor is their anything that would allow it to check itself to only have subs equal to the cards in hand nor is there anything that prevents its gain trigger from happening again.

So why would it still only have three. Please explain clearly.
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Jonny G
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Taloncarde wrote:
Yes, but if the runner doesn't break the subs the first time (going to 0 cards) then it's just a race to see who runes out of money first, the corp rezzing whirlpool or the runner breaking the X subroutines, where X was how many cards were in his hand the first encounter.


But if they run it twice then the first set of subroutines have not gone away so it would still be a flatline right?
 
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Chris Wood
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gawbo005 wrote:
Taloncarde wrote:
Yes, but if the runner doesn't break the subs the first time (going to 0 cards) then it's just a race to see who runes out of money first, the corp rezzing whirlpool or the runner breaking the X subroutines, where X was how many cards were in his hand the first encounter.


But if they run it twice then the first set of subroutines have not gone away so it would still be a flatline right?


Not if they break the subs the 2nd time through.

If I suspected the corp was trying to kill me with a Kominau/Cell portal trap, i'm not going to break the subs the first time through. Then it's just a matter of breaking the subs each subsequent time.
 
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Ian Neufeld
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gawbo005 wrote:
Taloncarde wrote:
Yes, but if the runner doesn't break the subs the first time (going to 0 cards) then it's just a race to see who runes out of money first, the corp rezzing whirlpool or the runner breaking the X subroutines, where X was how many cards were in his hand the first encounter.


But if they run it twice then the first set of subroutines have not gone away so it would still be a flatline right?


Unless they chose to take the damage while they have a Mimic installed, so that you have to spend 5 to rez Cell Portal, but they will only spend 3 to break Komainu on the second (and third and fourth) passes.

However, is you're playing PE and the prize at the end is an agenda, then they'll die on steal (if it doesn't win the game). But if that was the case, you wouldn't rez Cell Portal if they chose to take the card hit on Komainu, so they should keep 1 card in hand to mitigate that, so then Komainu would only gain 1 new subroutine on the second pass, so ... MIND GAMES!
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Jonny G
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Taloncarde wrote:


Not if they break the subs the 2nd time through.

If I suspected the corp was trying to kill me with a Kominau/Cell portal trap, i'm not going to break the subs the first time through. Then it's just a matter of breaking the subs each subsequent time.


The part that you mentioned is the importent aspect though. "If I suspected the corp was trying to kill me with a Kominau/Cell portal" That would be a pretty difficult read. Plus how do you know its not a neural katana or another damage ice.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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If you can kill their hand and lead them into stealing a 3 point agenda, then you should really have Punitive in your hand for the finish; perhaps even a neural emp for good measure. devil
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Alejandro G.
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So just jack out and you'll never have to face this issue...
 
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Chris Wood
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gawbo005 wrote:
Taloncarde wrote:


Not if they break the subs the 2nd time through.

If I suspected the corp was trying to kill me with a Kominau/Cell portal trap, i'm not going to break the subs the first time through. Then it's just a matter of breaking the subs each subsequent time.


The part that you mentioned is the importent aspect though. "If I suspected the corp was trying to kill me with a Kominau/Cell portal" That would be a pretty difficult read. Plus how do you know its not a neural katana or another damage ice.


Obviously i'm not saying it would be an easy assumption.

However if I can afford to break Komainu, it's likely I can afford to break Neural Katana if it was the next ice. It would obviously depend on situation and game state.
 
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Jonny G
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
So just jack out and you'll never have to face this issue...


Whirlpool and Inazuma have a bad habit of taking this option away from you.
 
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Sean Trundle
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Taloncarde wrote:
gawbo005 wrote:
Taloncarde wrote:
Yes, but if the runner doesn't break the subs the first time (going to 0 cards) then it's just a race to see who runes out of money first, the corp rezzing whirlpool or the runner breaking the X subroutines, where X was how many cards were in his hand the first encounter.


But if they run it twice then the first set of subroutines have not gone away so it would still be a flatline right?


Not if they break the subs the 2nd time through.

If I suspected the corp was trying to kill me with a Kominau/Cell portal trap, i'm not going to break the subs the first time through. Then it's just a matter of breaking the subs each subsequent time.


If you've been Whirlpooled into a Komainu, choosing not to break the subs seems like a questionable move to me against Jinteki. If they're rezzing a Whirlpool, they probably want you to access whatever's sitting in the server. So the corp just opts not to rez the Cell Portal and watches you faceplant on their Fetal/Snare/Shock/Hokusai/Yaddayaddayadda. Of course, if you have a Deus X out (or a way to get one out in the middle of a run) to deal with whatever they've installed back there, that might be your best play.

As to the original question, getting this board state setup seems a bit ridiculous/unlikely -- especially to do so before the runner has some means to break your Cell Portal. But if you do (and have enough credits to rez the Cell Portal at least a couple of times), it looks pretty lethal to me.
 
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Ian Neufeld
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strundle wrote:
As to the original question, getting this board state setup seems a bit ridiculous/unlikely -- especially to do so before the runner has some means to break your Cell Portal. But if you do (and have enough credits to rez the Cell Portal at least a couple of times), it looks pretty lethal to me.


That's my feeling too. Rezzing the combo ICE is going to be 10 credits, just to fire Cell Portal once. Add 5 more for each subsequent firing. In addition, if your finisher is Hokusai/Snare!, add another 2/4 credits to actually bring that online.

You also need to wait for all three of those Ice to come to you, and during that time the Komainu is not helping tax the Runner on a different server. If you were using Komainu on a different server and then used a Tenma Line to reposition it once you were ready, that might help the situation, but then you've revealed a critical piece of Ice to the Runner, and since it's already rezzed, it's vulnerable to Parasite at any point.

This combo is also efficiently disarmed by an Inside Job, AI breaker or a Femme targeting either of the two end pieces. Perhaps you'll find a deck that will be vulnerable to that play, but I'm hesitant to encourage this as your "big winning play". If you're not at match point, I'll just go play in your R&D instead.
 
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Chris Wood
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Again, i'm not saying I would do that every time. But if I knew they had whirlpool and I suspected they were trying to kill me with Komainu that would be what I would do yes. If I suspected they were trying to get me into the server to spring a trap, that's a different thing.

I am just saying, one way to keep Komainu from exponentially growing subroutines is to suffer them the first time through, take the rest of it however you want to.
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Brian H
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Hmm...I never actually thought about this interaction but it certainly strengthens Komainu, especially for the 5 rez cost.
 
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