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Subject: Net Shield seeing any play? rss

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Sean Trundle
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Until H&P, I figured Net Shield was completely obviated by Deus X. The former is good at dealing with paper cuts, whereas the latter saves you from flatlining. Despite efforts from a lot of PE players, it was never too hard to deal with paper cuts in the past . But playing against ALL THE JINTEKI over the last week, I've been rethinking that basic assumption: with the addition of House of Knives, Philotic Entanglement, Komainu (esp. backed with Inazuma), Shock!, Susanoo-no-Mikoto (into an archives with a Shock! in it...), etc., a slow-bleed Jinteki is looking more and more viable.

So far, I've mostly been squeaking through with Deus X recursion, but I will say that Levy AR has never seen as much play in my Shaper decks as it has over the last few days. Part of that is just the increase in the number of Jinteki players, but it's also that Jinteki has a lot more sources of damage now than they used to. It used to be that after your killer hit the table, you only really had to worry about Snare!s and Fetals: the random pings from PE, Neural, or Shock just didn't add up to much over the course of a game. That is no longer the case, if this weekend is any indication. Levy used to be kind of a last-ditch backstop against Jinteki, but now I go into every match basically expecting to use it at least once.

Anyway, has anyone given Net Shield another look? I'm still not sure it's worth including -- I don't think it's worth swapping Deus X out for, and keeping both installed is MU intensive (and potentially cumbersome to setup).

I'm also curious how other factions are dealing with the flood of net damage. I was only playing Shaper this weekend, where recursing your 1x Deus X half a dozen times is pretty manageable.
 
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David Jackman
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It shares a lot of the same space with deus X, although there are certain builds where net shield is preferable.

In shaper, i run net shield when im running faerie/sharpshooter, but if im not(or not running much recursion), i'll generally opt for a net shield.

Keep in mind this is in a rather jinteki-heavy meta. At least, it was when i was mostly playing Kate.

 
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Grish Noren
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In most cases Komainu is the worst example for why you would use netshield. Unless you're using Creeper (and now there's no reason to do that), it's the same price to use netshield as it is to use a breaker.

IMO, the card gaining value is feedback filter. Expensive, yes, but not limited to the first net damage. You can use it to instead prevent the bit that kills you and be able to protect against the ever more threatening brain damage. The real question with that card is whether your deck can support that sort of economy.

Worse: Not fetchable, more expensive
Better: Doesn't take up memory, protects against more things, can be activated more than once.
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Andrew Keddie
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Saan wrote:
In shaper, i run net shield when im running faerie/sharpshooter, but if im not(or not running much recursion), i'll generally opt for a net shield.


So, you run Net Shield all the time? o.O I assume one of those should have been Deus Ex?
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Ian Neufeld
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Net Shield is very efficient against my new surgical damage deck. It uses Tori Hanzo and House of Knives to ping the runner for 1 Net Damage that is then converted into a Brain Damage. Net Shield is an absolute hose on this strategy, because it means they can escape the Knife once / turn. Having to recur Deus X to achieve the same effect is really inefficient. It also makes my Neural EMP kill almost impossible to pull off (happily trading 1 credit for your 2 credits+card Neural EMP).

Deus X is much better against a deck that uses Junebugs, Snares, and Komainu. Plow into something big and let Deus X save you, then recur it before they can charge up their next big bang.

Know your opponent, and know what they are trying to do. If you can afford one of each, do it, because they protect you against different types of decks.
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Benjamin White
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I've been seeing a fair bit more Feedback Filter around here too. I personally haven't seen it used but I've heard it being installed from across the tables. Neither one really fits my style, but then again I've been building Anarch exclusively for a while and just saying "Fuck it, what's the worst that can happen?"
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Captain Frisk
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I'm playing both netshield and deus ex in my current Katman deck, at least until the jinteki dust settles.
 
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David Jackman
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Saan wrote:
In shaper, i run net shield when im running faerie/sharpshooter, but if im not(or not running much recursion), i'll generally opt for a net shield.


So, you run Net Shield all the time? o.O I assume one of those should have been Deus Ex?


Oops. The second one should have been deus x. Net shield the best option vs PE builds that utilize many sources of non ice damage, like pe, Hokusai, emp, HoK, share, shock, etc. Knocking one damage off snare will usually be plenty to prevent a flatline.
 
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Sean Trundle
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gumOnShoe wrote:
In most cases Komainu is the worst example for why you would use netshield. Unless you're using Creeper (and now there's no reason to do that), it's the same price to use netshield as it is to use a breaker.


Re: Komainu -- Deus X is obviously better than Net Shield when you're in the midst of encountering it (in all non-Inazuma situations, anyway). I mention it in the context of this conversation because if you do hit it without the ability to break, it's one more net damage tool that won't flatline you immediately (at least on its own), but will drain you of cards.

(sidenote: It's worth noting that Net Shield will let you live through Inazuma - Komainu + House of Knives. A killer won't help here, and Deus X achieves the same effect as Net Shield at the cost of trashing itself.)

gumOnShoe wrote:
IMO, the card gaining value is feedback filter. Expensive, yes, but not limited to the first net damage. You can use it to instead prevent the bit that kills you and be able to protect against the ever more threatening brain damage. The real question with that card is whether your deck can support that sort of economy.

Worse: Not fetchable, more expensive
Better: Doesn't take up memory, protects against more things, can be activated more than once.


That's surprising to me. I can see the brain damage prevention as appealing, although the best new brain damage tool (Tori) is also usually prevented by Net Shield.

In terms of countering net damage, Feedback Filter seems like it suffers from the classic jack-of-all-trades dilemma: while it simultaneously solves multiple problems (bleed damage OR burst damage), it's the worst solution for any specific problem. 3 credits per damage is *steep*.
 
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Louis Schiffer
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It should also be mention that you need to ask yourself what your own deck needs/wants. For example, if your econ isn't stellar than feedback filter might be too rich for your blood a lot of the time.

More importantly, you have to factor in what your biggest risk is, flatline or attrition. I remember having decks where I would draw out my deck all the the time as a result of my engine (e.g. Quality time and Free lance coding contract) and I it made my PE match up bad if I was consistantly taking net damage. So I put in net shield to sure up that match up.

If your problem is flat-lining than I'd go with deus ex as it will save you and you can always draw cards to protect against attrition. If your weakness is attrition go with net shield. And if you have skads of money just sitting around than use Feedback filter.
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David Jackman
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LouisSchiffer wrote:
It should also be mention that you need to ask yourself what your own deck needs/wants. For example, if your econ isn't stellar than feedback filter might be too rich for your blood a lot of the time.

More importantly, you have to factor in what your biggest risk is, flatline or attrition. I remember having decks where I would draw out my deck all the the time as a result of my engine (e.g. Quality time and Free lance coding contract) and I it made my PE match up bad if I was consistantly taking net damage. So I put in net shield to sure up that match up.

If your problem is flat-lining than I'd go with deus ex as it will save you and you can always draw cards to protect against attrition. If your weakness is attrition go with net shield. And if you have skads of money just sitting around than use Feedback filter.


This is one of the more important points. These cards do not fill the same role. For example, I see lots of people that compare net shield vs levy when talking about how to battle attrition. I say thats a bad comparison.

If you've got a breaker in hand, and it gets pinged, levy doesn't do crap for you for a large number of turns, which makes it all but pointless in combating this particular game state.

Feedback filter, in my opinion, is WAAAY too expensive to use. I cant think of a use case that i would use it instead of deus X - it'll do a lot more to save you from the flatline. There is memory - people are too married to their programs, and I think they overvalue the MU that feedback filter saves over the other options.

The only time I'd use it is if you're playing a list thats really weak to brain damage and brain damage is prevalent in the meta, which isn't really true anywhere yet. And considering that, Infiltration is a much more cost effective way to avoid brain damage than feedback filter, and its also more versatile.

 
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Brian H
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I had forgotten about Feedback Filter...3c is steep, but you don't have to use it unless you're going to flatline. And if they hit you for more than 1 extra net damage than it would take to kill you, Net Shield isn't going to do you any good, either. Deus X is really the only option in that case, assuming most of the damage comes from one source.
 
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R. Fetterkey
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I'll play Net Shield when and if Jinteki Chronos Protocol gets printed.
 
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Sean Trundle
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LouisSchiffer wrote:

More importantly, you have to factor in what your biggest risk is, flatline or attrition. I remember having decks where I would draw out my deck all the the time as a result of my engine (e.g. Quality time and Free lance coding contract) and I it made my PE match up bad if I was consistantly taking net damage. So I put in net shield to sure up that match up.


Fair point. I have been running a series of draw-like-crazy-event-econ Shaper decks, so that's definitely a factor in how much LARLA I've been using.

I guess it might be worth running both in my current configuration. The issue is that while outright flatline isn't normally a problem since I'm drawing so much, regularly having a handful of cards makes Deus X pretty valuable against Komainu/Psychic Field.
 
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fetterkey wrote:
I'll play Net Shield when and if Jinteki Chronos Protocol gets printed.

Reason enough for it to get printed.
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Vince Alvarez
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ProphetOfCod wrote:
Net Shield is very efficient against my new surgical damage deck. It uses Tori Hanzo and House of Knives to ping the runner for 1 Net Damage that is then converted into a Brain Damage. Net Shield is an absolute hose on this strategy, because it means they can escape the Knife once / turn.


Does Net Shield prevent the net damage that Tori Hanzo would convert? I was wondering about this. It seems that Tori Hanzo would convert it to BD before NS could prevent it. Tori reads:
Tori Hanzo wrote:
The first time you would do any amount of net damage during each run on this server, instead you may pay 2 credits to do 1 brain damage.


It seems that if Tori converts net damage to BD before the net damage is applied, then NS can't prevent that which doesn't occur.

Thoughts?
 
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Ian Neufeld
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heyvince wrote:
ProphetOfCod wrote:
Net Shield is very efficient against my new surgical damage deck. It uses Tori Hanzo and House of Knives to ping the runner for 1 Net Damage that is then converted into a Brain Damage. Net Shield is an absolute hose on this strategy, because it means they can escape the Knife once / turn.


Does Net Shield prevent the net damage that Tori Hanzo would convert? I was wondering about this. It seems that Tori Hanzo would convert it to BD before NS could prevent it. Tori reads:
Tori Hanzo wrote:
The first time you would do any amount of net damage during each run on this server, instead you may pay 2 credits to do 1 brain damage.


It seems that if Tori converts net damage to BD before the net damage is applied, then NS can't prevent that which doesn't occur.

Thoughts?


We got a ruling for this already

Net Shield vs. Tori Hanzo Ruling (Spoiler: Netshield Wins For Now)
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Ray Saltrelli
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gumOnShoe wrote:
In most cases Komainu is the worst example for why you would use netshield. Unless you're using Creeper (and now there's no reason to do that), it's the same price to use netshield as it is to use a breaker.

IMO, the card gaining value is feedback filter. Expensive, yes, but not limited to the first net damage. You can use it to instead prevent the bit that kills you and be able to protect against the ever more threatening brain damage. The real question with that card is whether your deck can support that sort of economy.

Worse: Not fetchable, more expensive
Better: Doesn't take up memory, protects against more things, can be activated more than once.


I'm a big fan of Feedback Filter. It allows you to avoid flatlining via net damage AND face check ICE (Janus) or assets (Cerebral Overwrite) without too much fear of brain damage.
 
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David Jackman
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MavericK96 wrote:
I had forgotten about Feedback Filter...3c is steep, but you don't have to use it unless you're going to flatline. And if they hit you for more than 1 extra net damage than it would take to kill you, Net Shield isn't going to do you any good, either. Deus X is really the only option in that case, assuming most of the damage comes from one source.


I still dont see why its better than Deus X. Doesn't Deus X do the same thing, but cheaper and more versatile (as it can be used to break problem ice)?
 
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Stan Adecla
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Saan wrote:
MavericK96 wrote:
I had forgotten about Feedback Filter...3c is steep, but you don't have to use it unless you're going to flatline. And if they hit you for more than 1 extra net damage than it would take to kill you, Net Shield isn't going to do you any good, either. Deus X is really the only option in that case, assuming most of the damage comes from one source.


I still dont see why its better than Deus X. Doesn't Deus X do the same thing, but cheaper and more versatile (as it can be used to break problem ice)?

You still play cautiously with Net Shield/Feedback in play. You don't just start going crazy against Jinteki just because you can block a single net damage per turn. What Net Shield helps to do is shrink the scoring windows Jinteki creates with their highly damaging servers.

It's much easier to make money than it is to draw cards in this game. Lots of cards exist which give either side loads of credits in a single click. Not as many exist which dump a whole bunch of cards into the grip in a single click. Hell, the ones which dispense the most cards are a 3 credit event and a 5/3 agenda. With Jinteki's ability to inflict a whole bunch of single instances of net damage now, Deus X won't work as a safety measure since using it to block a single net damage is almost the same as just having it discarded from your hand anyway. Net Shield/Feedback Filter can protect against a deck utilizing lots of cards that cut away at the grip instead of exploding it. Preventing the loss of a card with some credits that probably didn't take a whole click to get, saves you a click when it comes to preparing for the next instance of net damage you'll encounter through the game. John Masanori is another card that puts a damper on net damage strategies through reducing the number of clicks necessary for the runner to get to a healthy hand size.
 
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Brian H
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Saan wrote:
MavericK96 wrote:
I had forgotten about Feedback Filter...3c is steep, but you don't have to use it unless you're going to flatline. And if they hit you for more than 1 extra net damage than it would take to kill you, Net Shield isn't going to do you any good, either. Deus X is really the only option in that case, assuming most of the damage comes from one source.


I still dont see why its better than Deus X. Doesn't Deus X do the same thing, but cheaper and more versatile (as it can be used to break problem ice)?


Depends on what you are using it for. Deus X is a one-time net damage prevention (without recursion of course), and it only prevents damage from one source. So provided you have enough money, Feedback Filter is more versatile at preventing net damage. Also, you can prevent brain damage with Feedback Filter. You may be able to indirectly do that with Deus X by breaking AP subs, but there are a few pieces of ICE that can do brain damage and are not AP (Ichis and Wotan).
 
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