Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Combat Commander: Pacific» Forums » Rules

Subject: Overstacked in melee rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I suppose units can be overstacked in melee.

If that is the case,

1. Do enemy units also count for the overstacked cover modifier?

2. How do multiple units factor their firepower in the melee combat, just add them together or take one as base and add +1 for each extra unit?

3. Do leaders in the melee increase with their command value the firepower of each friendly unit?

Thanks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Jackson

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Marti,

Yes, units may be overstacked in Melee.

The Melee FP is not modified by cover.

Melee FP is the total of all of a nationalities participating unit's FP (not just +1 like in a firegroup). So yes, just add them all together.

Leaders do increase each unit's FP in Melee.

See. Rule 19, plus a great explanation is on the player's aid.

Don't forget Ambush actions and Bayonet actions.

Additionally, wire would reduce each units FP by one.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rogier van Vliet
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello Marti,

see if I can help.

1. I think there is no overstacked modifier in melee (Overstacking causes a cover penalty). You can enter with as many units you want. If the melee is over and you're still overstacked, you receive free deploy events. (split squads in 2 teams and eliminate one of the teams)

2. You can add up all the firepower of your units. Don't forget the plus 1 for boxed firepower.

3. Yep, they do this all the time.


I guess this will help you out.

Greets
Rogier







1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Jackson

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
You can enter with as many units you want. If the melee is over and you're still overstacked, you receive free deploy events. (split squads in 2 teams and eliminate one of the teams)


Don't forget, Units may overstack in Pacific without having to eliminate after each turn. Of course, if they were subsequently fired upon, the overstacking penalty would apply.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rogier van Vliet
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ok, must be confused between Europe & Pacific rules.

Thanks for correcting.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks everybody.

A clarification needed: if the Japanese enter units in melee and the Allied player Op Fires into this hex (so before the proper melee combat is resolved), in order to reduce the cover of the hex are only the Japanese soldiers counted or both the Japanese and Allied soldiers?

Example: two Japanese squads enter melee against one US squad. Eight soldiers againt four (I mean the drawings). Cover in the hex is reduced by 1 or by 5?

And another question: can the defender unit Op Fire against the enemy unit that has entered his hex? I guess not because units in melee cannot fire, but just wanted to be sure.

Thanks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Pence
United States
Tallahassee
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Martin, remember that OpFire is only available in response to a MOVE order, not an ADVANCE. An Advance order is the only way an enemy unit can enter a friendly-occupied hex. So the question is moot in that regard. No hex that is preparing for melee can be shot into, targeted directly with Artillery Rounds, etc.

All of this talk on reduced cover in melee is also not applicable. When checking melee, only the FP is checked by each unit, modified by their individual die rolls. Overstacking and cover have no affect on melee.

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Huffman
United States
Arlington
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
15.2 Unit Stacking
15.2.1 Stacking Limit
The number of units – friendly and enemy – that can stack in a hex without penalty is based upon the number of soldier figures on those counters. A hex can contain units sporting a total of up to 7 soldier figures without penalty. Any hex containing units with a total of 8 or more soldier figures is in violation of the stacking limit and is considered “overstacked”.

...

15.2.2 Overstacking Penalty
In any hex which is overstacked – that is, there are units present sporting 8 or more soldier figures – Cover in that hex is reduced by one for each soldier figure present above 7.

...

19.1 Melee Markers
...
A melee hex can’t be the target of a Fire Attack, nor can an SR be placed in or adjacent to one (a melee hex could still be affected by artillery if the SR subsequently drifted into or adjacent to it).



So all this to say that if your units were engaged in Melee, you could call in some artillery and hoped that it drifted and hit your Melee hex. This is good because the inactive player takes his rolls first! But then you too would suffer the Artillery Effects.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Perfect, thanks for your clear explanations.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Error Flynn
Finland
Helsinki
flag msg tools
huffman123 wrote:
So all this to say that if your units were engaged in Melee, you could call in some artillery and hoped that it drifted and hit your Melee hex. This is good because the inactive player takes his rolls first! But then you too would suffer the Artillery Effects.


This is pretty ricidulous. IMO enemy units sharing a hex with your own units shouldn't count towards the stacking limit at all. This kind of overstack only affects artillery hits and aircraft attacks anyway, and it doesn't make any sense that somehow your artillery/bombing run would suddenly be more efficient just because your units are also in the target hex.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Error Flynn wrote:
huffman123 wrote:
So all this to say that if your units were engaged in Melee, you could call in some artillery and hoped that it drifted and hit your Melee hex. This is good because the inactive player takes his rolls first! But then you too would suffer the Artillery Effects.


This is pretty ricidulous. IMO enemy units sharing a hex with your own units shouldn't count towards the stacking limit at all. This kind of overstack only affects artillery hits and aircraft attacks anyway, and it doesn't make any sense that somehow your artillery/bombing run would suddenly be more efficient just because your units are also in the target hex.


Well, I guess you'd consider that they are all fighting and mixed up, maybe some out in the open, as opposed to hunkering down in whatever cover the hex might afford.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Error Flynn
Finland
Helsinki
flag msg tools
Malacandra wrote:
Well, I guess you'd consider that they are all fighting and mixed up, maybe some out in the open, as opposed to hunkering down in whatever cover the hex might afford.


Yes, but it still doesn't explain why such an attack would be drastically more disastrous for the inactive player.

Let's play with this idea a bit. Two unbroken squads and an unbroken leader with command value of 2 for both sides share a clear terrain hex, which is then targeted by the active player (Japan) for a strafing run.

Inactive player (US) rolls first, so he has to start with -11 cover. His unbroken morales are 7, 7 and 8 (for the leader). Fighter has an attack strength of 9 and the Japanese player rolls 9, totaling the attack for 18.

Now the US player rolls 11 for his first squad and gets +2 from the leader, totaling 9, so the squad dies out right away. Second squad rolls 7 against cover -7 and gets +2 from the leader totaling 9 and dies out right away as well. The leader then rolls 12 against cover -3, totaling 17 and breaks.

Now the Japanese makes his three rolls with morales of 8, 8 and 10, but because the cover modifier at this point is only -3, he would have to roll 2 for any of his unbroken units to die out instantly. Instead, they will just break for anything less than 11.

The outcome of this kind of attack is almost unavoidably catastrophic for the inactive player. There is a big chance for his first couple of units to die out instantly and the remaining to get broken, while the active player probably only gets his units broken.

Yes, it is a an effective tactic when used properly and somehow expands the possibilities in the game. I just don't see the reasoning behind it. I think both the attacker AND the defender should be in equally bad situation as there is a more or less chaotic melee battle going on.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's going to be a pretty rare occurrence anyway. But in the end it's a game. The rules are written for playability, so the Inactive player does stuff first. No reason you can't house rule that particular situation though.

Plus, the U.S. is already in trouble for being in a melee with the Japanese anyway.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Are you sure you can do a strafing run against a melee hex? The rules say that a melee hex cannot be a target of a fire attack (19.1), which is what occurs during a strafing run.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
war_hero wrote:
Are you sure you can do a strafing run against a melee hex? The rules say that a melee hex cannot be a target of a fire attack (19.1), which is what occurs during a strafing run.


Good point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Error Flynn
Finland
Helsinki
flag msg tools
war_hero wrote:
Are you sure you can do a strafing run against a melee hex? The rules say that a melee hex cannot be a target of a fire attack (19.1), which is what occurs during a strafing run.


I think bombing run is not allowed as it is directly targeting that hex, but strafing run is allowed.

Rules state:

O24.5 Strafing Run

b) Make a 9 FP Fire Attack [O27.3] vs each hex in a line directly in front of the fighter – in order closest-to-farthest – if it has a LOS to any unit in that hex (friendly or enemy).

Yes, you could end up strafing your own troops—friendly fire due to mistaken identification was not altogether uncommon when it came to close air support. Choose your fire lane carefully.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Error Flynn wrote:
I think bombing run is not allowed as it is directly targeting that hex, but strafing run is allowed.

I disagree. Look at the rule you quote (my emphasis)

O24.5 Strafing Run

b) Make a 9 FP Fire Attack [O27.3] vs each hex in a line directly in front of the fighter – in order closest-to-farthest – if it has a LOS to any unit in that hex (friendly or enemy).


And now combine that with the second bullet under Melee

19.1 Melee Markers

* A melee hex can't be the target of a Fire Attack, nor can an SR be placed in or adjacent to one.....


Seems to me that lining up the strafing run to target the melee hex violates the rules.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.