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Subject: The Meta Post H&P? rss

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OhMee
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I was wondering how the meta in different Netrunner communities have shifted post H&P.

Obviously, many have been playing the new Jinteki toys. I suppose the rise in Jinteki usage would lead to a rise in Shaper runners as well. This leads to the question on whether H&P actually "hurt" Criminals. Aside from Planned Assault, there are no obvious includes in traditional Criminal builds. I'm sure many have tried the Sterling connections route. But I don't see H&P giving Criminal the same tools that C&C gave Shapers. I actually see the Criminals as being in the same position as HB post-C&C. They were a very strong faction pre-deluxe box but they didn't get a lot in their own expansion.

The thing about H&P, in my opinion, is that the Criminal faction even suffered greater because Jinteki got its well-deserved boost. Without any in-faction recursion tools, Criminal have less means to deal with all the net damaging toys of Jinteki.

So is it valid to assume that meta of different communities have (temporarily, I'm sure) shifted to Jinteki and Shaper and away from Criminals and Weyland?

I'm really just curious.
 
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Sean Trundle
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Why away from Weyland? Is there something specific about H&P or stemming from an increase in Shapers that would weaken Weyland? Or was your local meta dominated by Weyland before?

Anecdotally, I was already seeing a lot more Shapers on OCTGN pre-H&P -- I don't think that boost has been caused by the H&P Jinteki surge as much as certain builds picking up steam with the last couple of datapacks.
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Sam B
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milkolate wrote:
I was wondering how the meta in different Netrunner communities have shifted post H&P.

Obviously, many have been playing the new Jinteki toys. I suppose the rise in Jinteki usage would lead to a rise in Shaper runners as well. This leads to the question on whether H&P actually "hurt" Criminals. Aside from Planned Assault, there are no obvious includes in traditional Criminal builds. I'm sure many have tried the Sterling connections route. But I don't see H&P giving Criminal the same tools that C&C gave Shapers. I actually see the Criminals as being in the same position as HB post-C&C. They were a very strong faction pre-deluxe box but they didn't get a lot in their own expansion.

The thing about H&P, in my opinion, is that the Criminal faction even suffered greater because Jinteki got its well-deserved boost. Without any in-faction recursion tools, Criminal have less means to deal with all the net damaging toys of Jinteki.

So is it valid to assume that meta of different communities have (temporarily, I'm sure) shifted to Jinteki and Shaper and away from Criminals and Weyland?

I'm really just curious.


Legwork is almost an auto-include in any criminal deck at this point - the HQ pressure it adds is huge, and it's a game winner if timed correctly. I'd also say that Gabe and Andy benefit hugely from Security Testing - it turns Gabe's HQ runs into 4-5 money if he doesn't care about access, and Andy can now safely check Archives to get sucker counters without taking Shock! damage. Security Testing also makes Asset economy a liability since any open server gives criminals a free Easy Mark every turn.

I'm not sure if the connections deck has legs yet but I did run into trouble against a breakerless Stirling DLR deck that sets up using Tri-Mafs and Logos. When it's ready it mills 3 cards a turn and then uses the Stirling credits to clear tags so the combo pieces are safe. It was terrifying and I only won because I happened to mandatory draw the last agenda instead of it being milled.

Regarding the net damage problem, I don't see that Jinteki have gained anything which makes random net damage earth-shatteringly problematic for Criminals. A few more ice/ambush possibilities to keep in mind, but the gist is the same as it ever was: keep them poor and don't run if there's something in hand you can't afford to lose. You'll be slower than you'd like to be, but any Jinteki deck which focuses on dishing out net damage isn't going to win faster than you can rig up.
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OhMee
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strundle wrote:
Why away from Weyland? Is there something specific about H&P or stemming from an increase in Shapers that would weaken Weyland? Or was your local meta dominated by Weyland before?

Anecdotally, I was already seeing a lot more Shapers on OCTGN pre-H&P -- I don't think that boost has been caused by the H&P Jinteki surge as much as certain builds picking up steam with the last couple of datapacks.


I think with people opting more to go to Jinteki, the WEyland base gets diminished, and yes Shapers' ability to outmoney Weyland (on an MO-based economy) makes SEA Source less difficult to pull off.
 
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Lysander
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Jinteki is a very difficult faction to test and tweak, so it will probably take a couple weeks for anything definitive on the Corp front. I predict Making News, ETF, and CI will predominate.

And as Strundle pointed out, Shapers had already been on the rise. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them overtake Criminals.
 
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Shane Ruman
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Gotta admit, I'm a bit confused. An Iain Sterling deck based on DLR that's breakerless? DLR needs a successful run on a central server so ... ? Is it based on some Inside Job/Feint/Blackmail weirdness to get through?
 
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Sam B
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3 copies of DLR, runs on Archives early or if your other central ice isn't hard-ETR. That's how I saw it working, I guess Inside Job and Feint would do in a pinch too.
 
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Raf Cordero
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Are we really "Post H&P" yet? It feels way too soon to know where the meta is going to go. Also, with the short time the expansion has been out I don't think we've had the time necessary to test new decks/archetypes/synergies/etc.
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Neil G
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TestTones wrote:


Legwork is almost an auto-include in any criminal deck at this point - the HQ pressure it adds is huge, and it's a game winner if timed correctly. I'd also say that Gabe and Andy benefit hugely from Security Testing - it turns Gabe's HQ runs into 4-5 money if he doesn't care about access, and Andy can now safely check Archives to get sucker counters without taking Shock! damage. Security Testing also makes Asset economy a liability since any open server gives criminals a free Easy Mark every turn.

I'm not sure if the connections deck has legs yet but I did run into trouble against a breakerless Stirling DLR deck that sets up using Tri-Mafs and Logos. When it's ready it mills 3 cards a turn and then uses the Stirling credits to clear tags so the combo pieces are safe. It was terrifying and I only won because I happened to mandatory draw the last agenda instead of it being milled.

Regarding the net damage problem, I don't see that Jinteki have gained anything which makes random net damage earth-shatteringly problematic for Criminals. A few more ice/ambush possibilities to keep in mind, but the gist is the same as it ever was: keep them poor and don't run if there's something in hand you can't afford to lose. You'll be slower than you'd like to be, but any Jinteki deck which focuses on dishing out net damage isn't going to win faster than you can rig up.


Couldn't agree more - just a few games with Security Testing out have totally sold me on it, it's incredibly strong for any deck already running Desperado and Datasuckers and particularly nasty against Jinteki who were just getting used to the idea of leaving Archives un-iced with Shock! for protection. Legwork is just nuts for Andy who doesn't have Gabe's incentive to be checking HQ regularly already.

Wouldn't Icing archives and using Jackson (both for draw to reach agendas and reshuffling them in) pretty much knacker that Sterling deck?

I haven't practiced against enough H&P Jinteki decks yet but I think it'll be the ones that focus on coupling brain damage to net damage that are the scariest, if they can drop your hand size by a couple then every bit of net damage becomes more of a hassle and you'll be drawing up an awful lot to make runs safe... Kill those Tori Hanzo's on sight!
 
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Raf Cordero
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Vapo wrote:


I haven't practiced against enough H&P Jinteki decks yet but I think it'll be the ones that focus on coupling brain damage to net damage that are the scariest, if they can drop your hand size by a couple then every bit of net damage becomes more of a hassle and you'll be drawing up an awful lot to make runs safe... Kill those Tori Hanzo's on sight!


I'm hoping to test a deck soon that imports some of these new Jinteki toys into an HB brain damage deck. Ever since C&C brought that HB identity that specifically restricts Jinteki cards, I've been convinced that somewhere in the bowels of FFG's dev offices is a brutal HB+Jintekisplash deck that is just wrecking people.
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Sam B
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Vapo wrote:

Wouldn't Icing archives and using Jackson (both for draw to reach agendas and reshuffling them in) pretty much knacker that Sterling deck?

Says the guy who thinks Jackson is overrated

He isn't aiming to win through agendas in archives, he's aiming to win through decking you. Any agendas he gets through random access luck are Data-Dealered to fuel the milling rig. Jackson buys you time for sure, but if you have bled too many agenda points your only play is to Jackson 3 agendas into R&D at the start of your turn and then spend that whole turn drawing in the hopes you hit enough to make up your points deficit.

Once DLR is down icing archives does nothing.
 
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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wiley15 wrote:
Gotta admit, I'm a bit confused. An Iain Sterling deck based on DLR that's breakerless? DLR needs a successful run on a central server so ... ? Is it based on some Inside Job/Feint/Blackmail weirdness to get through?
One run the turn you install DLR, so quite early in the game.

The classic DLR mill-3-a-turn combo requires the following setup:
- Data Leak Reversal,
- John Masanori,
- Crash Space,
- New Angeles City Hall,
- Joshua B.
Then the turn looks like this: get extra click thanks to Joshua B, do an unsuccessful run to tag yourself with John Masanori, use DLR three times, use Crash Space money to remove the John Masanori's tag, use New Angeles City Hall to avoid Joshua B's tag. Logos definitely will make setting this up faster. Stirling gives you money to feed New Angeles City Hall, which menas that once the corp scores and you are setup, you can mill indefinitely without any cash earning breaks. Is this better than Andromeda's 4 extra draws at the start of the game meaning you set up faster? I'm not sure, but that's definitely worth testing.
 
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Shane Ruman
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Thanks for the explanation. Wow, that's a big setup list (and 12 inf. for 3-ofs). Hostage would probably speed it up but ...
 
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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The basic mill works off DRL and John Masanori. Joshua/NACH lets you mill 3 cards a turn instead of two, while Crash Space saves you 2 credits a turn. I guess in Stirling you would spend your influence on 3x DLR, 2x Joshua, 2x Quality Time.
 
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Sean Trundle
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hsiale wrote:
wiley15 wrote:
Gotta admit, I'm a bit confused. An Iain Sterling deck based on DLR that's breakerless? DLR needs a successful run on a central server so ... ? Is it based on some Inside Job/Feint/Blackmail weirdness to get through?
One run the turn you install DLR, so quite early in the game.

The classic DLR mill-3-a-turn combo requires the following setup:
- Data Leak Reversal,
- John Masanori,
- Crash Space,
- New Angeles City Hall,
- Joshua B.
Then the turn looks like this: get extra click thanks to Joshua B, do an unsuccessful run to tag yourself with John Masanori, use DLR three times, use Crash Space money to remove the John Masanori's tag, use New Angeles City Hall to avoid Joshua B's tag. Logos definitely will make setting this up faster. Stirling gives you money to feed New Angeles City Hall, which menas that once the corp scores and you are setup, you can mill indefinitely without any cash earning breaks. Is this better than Andromeda's 4 extra draws at the start of the game meaning you set up faster? I'm not sure, but that's definitely worth testing.


If they're going breakerless, that also requires the corp to setup at least one server with outside ice you can harmlessly bounce off of (or no ice at all). That's not necessarily a given in the current Jinteki-rich environment.
 
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Alejandro G.
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captainraffi wrote:
Are we really "Post H&P" yet? It feels way too soon to know where the meta is going to go. Also, with the short time the expansion has been out I don't think we've had the time necessary to test new decks/archetypes/synergies/etc.


Agreed.

These cards just came hot and fresh out of the oven. They haven't even had the chance to cool off and be enjoyed yet...
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Chris Wood
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Shoot, i'm already playing the post Lunar Cycle Meta
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OhMee
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
captainraffi wrote:
Are we really "Post H&P" yet? It feels way too soon to know where the meta is going to go. Also, with the short time the expansion has been out I don't think we've had the time necessary to test new decks/archetypes/synergies/etc.


Agreed.

These cards just came hot and fresh out of the oven. They haven't even had the chance to cool off and be enjoyed yet...


When I said "post-H&P", I only meant "After the release of H&P".
 
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Brian H
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Still, it's only been like, one week since H&P was released.
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milkolate wrote:

When I said "post-H&P", I only meant "After the release of H&P". :)


Yeah, sure. We can assume you're not a fool, interpret your title with an eye toward context, and arrive at that meaning.

Or we can act like this is the internet.

The problem with people like you, milkolate, is that with such short thread titles it's hard to come up with more than one way to misunderstand. Those of us clicking through every thread - despite our lack of interest in the actual topics - are left with few options when we post.

*****

Personally, I had fun smoking people with classic Anarch and Weyland decks designed to take on (unpracticed) Jinteki and Criminal decks. It seemed so obvious I was genuinely surprised everyone else hadn't done the same.
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Andrew Barrett
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Quote:
Personally, I had fun smoking people with classic Anarch and Weyland decks designed to take on (unpracticed) Jinteki and Criminal decks. It seemed so obvious I was genuinely surprised everyone else hadn't done the same.

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