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Subject: I won the Tholian OP with this list and Cloaked Mines rss

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Thomas Cage
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I won my FLGS Tholian OP with a fleet that I thought was perfect for the event, but several of the other players called pure cheese.

My thought was to build a fleet that would provide area denial in an area denial playing field. With the board forcing ships to the center as it shrank, I knew I had to own that prime piece of real estate.

Our TO called for 90 point builds with 30 points of resources basically to prep us for the Borg OPs with the 90/30 point split.

Resources:
Klingon Flagship (10)
Fed fighters (20)

Vor'cha class (26)
Martok-8 (5)
Flagship
Tactical Officer (4)
Tom Paris (5)
Cloaked Mines (4)
Cloaked Mines (4)

Ship Total: 48

IKS Koraga (26)
Gowron (4)
Tactical Officer (4)
Hikaru Sulu (4)
Cloaked Mines (4)

Ship Total: 42

Build Total: 120

My strategy was to cloak on Turn 1, and move as fast as I could to the center. On Turn 2, I would drop mines across the center and then move very slowly. Target lock as soon as possible and pound away with 're-rolls of 're-rolls.

Round one I took the by, Round 2 was paired against a Valdor/Rav Larest (with 1 cloaked mine!)/Fed Fighter fleet. His Rav-Larest and my Koraga mutually destroyed each other, but I won by points. Round 3 put me against a Fed Pure fleet Enterprise-D / Voyager / Fed fighters. My cloaked mines forced him around and in his attempt to turn put his Ent-D under the Tholian Energy Web by end of the game. I had no losses and with his big flagship destroyed (by an NPC, albeit), I took the match.

Several players congratulated me on my tactics, but several others were rather vociferous in their disgust of my cloaked mines. My thoughts are that with the Borg, and with the shrinking game board in this OP, we should and will see more cloaked mines used. The meta had shifted away from this, but I think it is going to swing back.

Any other experiences, similar or not? What are your thoughts on cloaked mines in general and in specific to this OP?
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Don D.
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People are ridiculous. You won using cards they chose not to use. Take your first prize and laugh at them.
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Stephen Thorpe
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Congrats on the win and forget about the sour grapes from some of your opponents.

If they let you get your mines in play to cover the centre of the board they have to live with the consequences.

After all any placement on the first turn won't be there if the web fully closes (being destroyed by the web tokens touching the minefield token); and, if they'd planned with a counter to this strategy in mind then movement in the first turn could have prevented minefields in the centre area due to the restrictions on mine placement.
 
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Dan Knight
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I maintain that cloaked mines are going to be useless against a good player in this scenario, you shouldn't be be able to put them where you want.

One of your opponent's was running the Galaxy? In a scenario where you need to be highly maneuverable? That's just poor fleet building.

If you see your opponent is packing multiple cloaked mines, your turn 1 strategy should be "get to the goddamn centre of the table"
 
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David Villa
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Congrats to you. Both on the win, and your creativity and inginuity in your build and just as import, the effective execution of your strategy!

You are most deserving of the win and its spoils.
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Kevin Roberson
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Whizzwang wrote:

One of your opponent's was running the Galaxy? In a scenario where you need to be highly maneuverable? That's just poor fleet building.


I haven't played it yet, but I was planning on using a Galaxy and I think it's viable. It's got the fastest Full Astern of any ship (2) and if paired with either Engage or the Cochrane Deceleration Maneuver should be able to maneuver long enough to win the game if its damage output is maximized. If you think I'm totally wrong here, tell me so before I make a tournament ending mistake.
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John Sowerby
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I've got a question. For those of you playing with multiple cloaked mines, are you using them in such a way that you are triggering multiple mines against one ship in a turn? I had that used against me this last weekend, but checking the FAQ, if you enter the trigger zone of more than one mine template in a turn, you are only affected by one of them.
 
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Alex
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TheLimey wrote:
I've got a question. For those of you playing with multiple cloaked mines, are you using them in such a way that you are triggering multiple mines against one ship in a turn? I had that used against me this last weekend, but checking the FAQ, if you enter the trigger zone of more than one mine template in a turn, you are only affected by one of them.


With this caveat:

"However, if a ship passes through (and completely out of) the trigger area of one Cloaked Mine and into the trigger area of another Cloaked Mine, then the ship sustains damage from both Cloaked Mines."

You're right though, many people play it incorrectly.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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1 cloaked mine will effectively cover a 9"x10" area and the board is reduced to 12"x12". There really isn't much need to drop multiple mines in the scenario from what I've seen. Due to overlap rules, you'll rarely get multiple applications in such a small space
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Henry Durand
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Zaurkahn wrote:
I won my FLGS Tholian OP with a fleet that I thought was perfect for the event, but several of the other players called pure cheese.


Hey Thomas,

First off - congrats on the win! You played it perfectly, within the specifications and rules set by the TO, and obviously flew your fleet exactly as your strategy called for.

You and I have had these discussions in the past (faction pure vs mixed fleets, are the Borg over-powered, etc.), as we've played against each other quite a bit at the OP events, so I think you know where I stand on this. If the TO allows it, then it is fair game. Every other player that night had the option to run something similar. They chose not to, for whatever reason. The OP events are competitive events with prizes, so there's no reason not to take full advantage of the rules laid out by the organizer.

Having said that, I personally do not enjoy those types of games as much, and prefer a faction pure event. For that reason, we've been more involved in the events at another local store where they specify faction pure. That is our choice - whether or not to participate in events, based on the rules in place. By agreeing to play in an event, you agree to accept the rules set by the organizer. Simple - if you don't enjoy playing that way, don't play. If we show up at a store that allows, or even encourages, mixed fleets, we know what we're getting into before we start play. We may not choose to run a fleet like that, but that's our choice.

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder. According to what was allowed by the TO, your fleet was perfectly legit. And if another fleet had happened to beat you, the cheese accusations may not have been so loud.

Just my $.02.
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Thomas Cage
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Henry -

I understand your concerns about faction pure vs mixed crews. If you remember, when I started, I was playing faction pure. I watched as Min/Maxxers regularly blew me out of the skies. I had to learn to think beyond my own limitations and embrace the game system as presented. It does come with built in limits, in the form of increased cost for cross factioning.

In my opinion, whether it is a called for faction pure or mixed faction allowed event, you should try and play with the tools allotted to the best of your ability. I was trying to play against strong players and new players who can be VERY surprising in their innovations.
I used the cloaked mines and Romulan Tactical Officers on Klingon ships because I have developed a working play style, and I wanted to have harder hitting ships (to go against the Voyager and Borg) that could cloak. I could have taken Romulan D'Deridi because of the tech slots needed, but they only have 3 attack dice.

I will admit that I won by luck more than anything, but luck is not much more than preparation and timing. The tactics I used worked and could have worked better had my attack rolls not been countered so effectively by several astounding defense rolls.

Henry, I appreciate flying against you more than you realize as you have taught me so much. You have forced me to think on more than just jousting styles, but into the realm of multiple moves and counter moves based on your opponent's play style, temperament and created lists. Your children and you are excellent opponents and wonderful people, and I am grateful for your tutelage. If you decide to play at other venues because of the TO's call on Faction Pure, I have no other course but to respect that.

 
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Rob Tsuk
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Zaurkahn wrote:
I watched as Min/Maxxers regularly blew me out of the skies.


I am getting seriously tired of being called this.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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I don't see this build as cheese at all. No Picard, no Conditional Surrender, etc. Mines are a valid and beatable strategy the same as anything else in the game. People just don't like when they have to change their tactics to adapt to something different.

Its easily beatable, and since he could mix factions and have 2 resources, I don't think the list is even close to optimized. For this OP, 3 cloaked mines are a waste, Gowron is not a great choice with just 1 ship to boost and the fact that he basically makes the ship a 4 action ship to do everything you want (cloak, gowron, sulu, TL), tactical officers are not as great as you think they are here (You could get a higher hit % with a few tweaks and have points left over), and 3 mines give quite diminishing returns since you don't get double rolls on overlaps and 1 mine can control the majority of the middle area by itself.

Its a nice list and I congratulate his win for the Klingon Empire, but it wouldn't be a top 3-4 list against the guys I play with with that degree of un-optimization.

rtsuk wrote:
Zaurkahn wrote:
I watched as Min/Maxxers regularly blew me out of the skies.


I am getting seriously tired of being called this.


I agree. I take time to come up with a different and unique build specific to every scenario and then play test it with my dad to make sure it functions as planned. This has lead me to lose exactly 1 OP game ever. Everyone else has the same access to cards and strategies that I do. That's why we have a rule set, to govern what we can and can't play. I just operate within the specified rules of the game and build the best I can. We play mixed faction, so I mix factions. Why would someone handicap themselves with faction pure if they weren't forced to?
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Henry Durand
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Zaurkahn wrote:
In my opinion, whether it is a called for faction pure or mixed faction allowed event, you should try and play with the tools allotted to the best of your ability.


I agree 100%, and hope I did not come across otherwise. To quote former NY Jets coach Herm Edwards, "You play to win the game. Hello? You play to win the game!"

The TO sets the rules, and the players abide by them. We'll likely still show up for some games, and we know what to expect and what we're likely to face, and we'll have to build our fleets accordingly. We have the same range of options as anyone else playing at that venue, and have to decide what we want to fly that we will (a) enjoy flying and (b) give us a chance to be competitive.

Do I find mixed fleets as enjoyable as faction pure? Personally, no I don't. But I can't fault anyone for playing to win according to the rules in place at their venue. So I don't have concerns, as much as I have preferences. We all do - whether it's what we like to eat to what we like to fly in STAW. And we just have to decide where and how we like to play based on those preferences.

Glad to hear you feel you've learned from our games. I have as well - as I think I have from every game I've played - even if all I've learned is what NOT to do next game! Maybe next time we play I can learn how to beat your latest fleet.

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Thomas Cage
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No offense meant, Rob. It just means that you (and I) minimize our short comings due to faction restrictions and maximize our card synergies. It is a far cry from being a munchkin or uber-power gamer. Min/Maxxing is what offends some players coming into the game because they want to preserve the TV/movie's insistence on Fed crews on Fed ships, Picard would never command a Borg Spere, Kirk on a Cardassian ship is just wrong, et cetera. Min/Maxxers play in the rules set to the rule set and in the spirit of the game.

Munchkins do it and are gloaters over it, and sometimes stretch the rules to the breaking point and play outside the spirit of the game (the old reference from AD&D days).

Again, Rob - I offer no offense to you, and have read your posts often to learn more insight into the game. I am grateful for the time and effort you and others have put into this game. My disdain is for people who abuse the system or fellow players, or cry cheese when they didn't win. Some of the "cheese crying" is light-hearted ribbing, and I can take that just fine. Who hasn't busted a friends balls once in a while? It's the ones who get upset over the system without taking time to understand it. I think Andrew and Chris put together a fine game that has it's flaws but is overall VERY fun and extremely customizable.
 
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Thomas Cage
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And for the record, I have NO problem with Limburger, Gouda, Brie or Cheddar.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Zaurkahn wrote:
And for the record, I have NO problem with Limburger, Gouda, Brie or Cheddar.


How about Colby-Jack?
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Henry Durand
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Zaurkahn wrote:
And for the record, I have NO problem with Limburger, Gouda, Brie or Cheddar.


Don't you mean lim-borg-er?
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Rob Tsuk
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I'm sorry, I should have thrown a in there. I'm not offended.

I have no problem with the cheese label for some of my builds. I've used it myself on my Shinzon build and that's why I put it on the shelf for a while. It's coming back for the Borg, though, and might not be cheesy enough.

Min-maxing, though, generally implies someone gaining an advantage by not playing within the spirit of the game. I know a lot of folks feel that way about cross-factioning, but really that's a problem in their heads and not with my behavior.
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Thomas Cage
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I went with the 3 mines more for the psychological factor - people tend to be afraid of them. An overwhelming number makes people behave in a way I can better predict. My choice of ships was for the number of dice I could throw, and to keep a somewhat themed fight. I had to choose between Gowron's +1 for Martok or Sulu as an action, but with planning, I could cloak Turn 1, target lock on Turn 2 with either Gowron or Sulu being tapped due to the Flagship and Martok's granting of actions, maneuver on Turn 3 after firing, and reacquire target locks to keep reusing my Tactical Officers. I have learned that multiple re-rolls is often better than multiple dice, as I can get 3-4 extra hits/crits on good rolls. Still have the opportunity to whiff a roll, but that's the nature of dice. I also knew that I could lose a ship, so I set up the Koraga as the sacrificial goat - people would fire on Gowron because he grants the higher dice amount roll. Because of that I could position my Vorcha to fire after causing them to swerve out of the way due to mine placement. My plan was to give a target and take the fight to them.

It may not be optimized to insane levels, but I was proud of it. If you have any suggestions or can offer any lessons on further optimizing, I am all ears ad willing to learn. Thanks!!




jmdt784 wrote:
I don't see this build as cheese at all. No Picard, no Conditional Surrender, etc. Mines are a valid and beatable strategy the same as anything else in the game. People just don't like when they have to change their tactics to adapt to something different.

Its easily beatable, and since he could mix factions and have 2 resources, I don't think the list is even close to optimized. For this OP, 3 cloaked mines are a waste, Gowron is not a great choice with just 1 ship to boost and the fact that he basically makes the ship a 4 action ship to do everything you want (cloak, gowron, sulu, TL), tactical officers are not as great as you think they are here (You could get a higher hit % with a few tweaks and have points left over), and 3 mines give quite diminishing returns since you don't get double rolls on overlaps and 1 mine can control the majority of the middle area by itself.

Its a nice list and I congratulate his win for the Klingon Empire, but it wouldn't be a top 3-4 list against the guys I play with with that degree of un-optimization.

rtsuk wrote:
Zaurkahn wrote:
I watched as Min/Maxxers regularly blew me out of the skies.


I am getting seriously tired of being called this.


I agree. I take time to come up with a different and unique build specific to every scenario and then play test it with my dad to make sure it functions as planned. This has lead me to lose exactly 1 OP game ever. Everyone else has the same access to cards and strategies that I do. That's why we have a rule set, to govern what we can and can't play. I just operate within the specified rules of the game and build the best I can. We play mixed faction, so I mix factions. Why would someone handicap themselves with faction pure if they weren't forced to?
 
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J S
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Zaurkahn wrote:
I won my FLGS Tholian OP with a fleet that I thought was perfect for the event, but several of the other players called pure cheese.


Hey Thomas, your Round 2 here.

Just want to make sure you know I was just giving you crap and didn’t actually mean anything by it. Lets face it, as the TO said, I'm normally the one to play stuff like this any way.

Sorry if that wasn’t clear, I know I sometimes come across quite strongly and god knows my social interactions still need work blush...



P.S Hey Henry.
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Thomas Cage
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Hey Jeremy!

No issues or worries my friend - I enjoyed our combat greatly. I'm a fan of playing you at any event.

And yes, you are the cheese player. You are a tough fighter and a mean list builder.
 
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J S
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Good to know, see you Monday.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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OK, now I want an excuse to travel to Georgia to play ST:AW with y'all.
 
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Thomas Cage
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rtsuk wrote:
OK, now I want an excuse to travel to Georgia to play ST:AW with y'all.


Any time, Rob - any time!
 
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