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Subject: How to keep the runner out? rss

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Carl Frodge
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I hate to keep making these threads, asking this and that, but this is something that I've had trouble with from the beginning.

So I'm playing as corp and everything's going cool, but then, the runner's got their breakers out, their rig set up and a decent flow of cash. And now...my servers are prime realty, up for grabs. They're getting in.

I try to get the money advantage, but it's no use, even if I match their econ, they're still getting in. So I ICE up the server even more, so what, they get some more cash and run.

I've had trouble keeping the runner out like this from day one. Sure I'll win some games cuz they can't set up fast enough, but once they do, it's like I've already lost. Sometimes I can rush out 5-6 points early enough, but then that last agenda just escapes me.


Any suggestions/help on keeping the runner out? If it helps, I'm playing a non-scorch version of Building a Better World. I've tried program trashing, but once they have their sentry breaker, the only thing I've got left is Aggressive Secretary (if I choose to include it in my deck).

 
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Weilong Seow
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Do you have a sample decklist? Could be a matter of the cards in your deck not fitting your playstyle.
 
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L W
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I haven't seen your other threads. But there is no way to keep the runner out every game. This game is often described as have three stages, early, mid, and late.

In the early game the runner often has the advantage because the corp hasn't been able to ice up servers.

In the mid game the corp has the advantage since the servers are iced but the runner doesn't have a rig to break them all.

In the late game the runner has the advantage with a rig that can get into any server.

A typical corp strategy is to extend the mid game as long as possible to score enough agendas to win the game.
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Double Plus Undead
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Budapest wrote:
A typical corp strategy is to extend the mid game as long as possible to score enough agendas to win the game.


What are some ways to do that?
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Carl Frodge
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pirate_chef wrote:
Budapest wrote:
A typical corp strategy is to extend the mid game as long as possible to score enough agendas to win the game.


What are some ways to do that?

This.


Also, here's the most recent build of the deck I've been playing:

Weyland - What's He Hiding in There?

Weyland Consortium: Building a Better World (Core Set)

Agenda (10)
1x Geothermal Fracking (Opening Moves)
1x Government Contracts (A Study in Static)
3x Hostile Takeover (Core Set)
2x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
3x Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead)

Asset (8)
2x Aggressive Secretary (Core Set) ••••
3x GRNDL Refinery (Fear and Loathing)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••

Operation (9)
3x Beanstalk Royalties (Core Set)
3x Green Level Clearance (A Study in Static) •••
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)

Barrier (6)
1x Bastion (Creation and Control)
3x Ice Wall (Core Set)
2x Wall of Static (Core Set)

Code Gate (7)
3x Enigma (Core Set)
1x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••
3x Viper (Cyber Exodus) •••

Sentry (7)
2x Archer (Core Set)
3x Caduceus (What Lies Ahead)
2x Grim (Opening Moves)

ICE (2)
2x Chimera (Cyber Exodus)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Fear and Loathing

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
 
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j n
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One way is bait the runner into spending their money one turn, so that they won't have enough to run again the next turn.

This should be especially doable if you're at 5-6 points, as any card can masquerade as a 3/1 or 3/2 agenda. Put a PAD Campaign in that remote and watch them spend all their money coming in for it. Then install your agenda while they're poor. If you have four points, you could install and double-advance a Posted Bounty (often a good idea anyway), then while they're broke from stealing it, put out the PriReq or Government Contracts.

The HB Upgrade Ash can also help immensely. The runner spends a ton of money getting in and doesn't have enough to beat your Ash trace, buying you a turn to advance your agenda.

Also, Corporate Troubleshooter on an Archer or Grim can surprise-trash a program and buy you an opening.
 
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Ben Hawks
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The answer is simple, you can't keep them out. If the game gets late enough, the runner can get into any sever (barring some fixed strength breaker weirdness). All corp decks need a plan to deal with this eventuality.

Your plan might be to make an expensive server that will take most of their resources to run, then trick them into running when they won't get an agenda, using Ambushes or other assets. You might play an upgrade like Ash or Caprice to help you force agendas through. You might score 4-5 points, then Fast Advance the rest. You might threaten to flatline the runner, putting them in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. You might just try to rush hard enough so they never get to late game.

The point is, no sever is impenetrable. That's part of what makes the game fun and challenging. You need to be clever to still find ways to score even when they can run through your server.
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JPG
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lactamaeon wrote:
One way is bait the runner into spending their money one turn, so that they won't have enough to run again the next turn.

This should be especially doable if you're at 5-6 points, as any card can masquerade as a 3/1 or 3/2 agenda. Put a PAD Campaign in that remote and watch them spend all their money coming in for it. Then install your agenda while they're poor. If you have four points, you could install and double-advance a Posted Bounty (often a good idea anyway), then while they're broke from stealing it, put out the PriReq or Government Contracts.

The HB Upgrade Ash can also help immensely. The runner spends a ton of money getting in and doesn't have enough to beat your Ash trace, buying you a turn to advance your agenda.

Also, Corporate Troubleshooter on an Archer or Grim can surprise-trash a program and buy you an opening.


This is usually described as "opening a scoring window". Make something look like an agenda and force him to go after it and then use the turn he has to spend getting his resources back to score the last agenda.
 
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Carl Frodge
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Grusome99 wrote:
lactamaeon wrote:
One way is bait the runner into spending their money one turn, so that they won't have enough to run again the next turn.

This should be especially doable if you're at 5-6 points, as any card can masquerade as a 3/1 or 3/2 agenda. Put a PAD Campaign in that remote and watch them spend all their money coming in for it. Then install your agenda while they're poor. If you have four points, you could install and double-advance a Posted Bounty (often a good idea anyway), then while they're broke from stealing it, put out the PriReq or Government Contracts.

The HB Upgrade Ash can also help immensely. The runner spends a ton of money getting in and doesn't have enough to beat your Ash trace, buying you a turn to advance your agenda.

Also, Corporate Troubleshooter on an Archer or Grim can surprise-trash a program and buy you an opening.


This is usually described as "opening a scoring window". Make something look like an agenda and force him to go after it and then use the turn he has to spend getting his resources back to score the last agenda.


That was the idea in the deck I posted with the GRNDL Refinery's. If they go for it, they pay and get nothing, plus they have to pay to trash them. If they don't, I get a bunch of money. And then the Aggressive Secretary was there to throw them off. They think "Oh it's just Refinery, I'll just trash it, and then bam, their programs are gone." That was the plan anyway, it did an okay job, I guess.
 
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pirate_chef wrote:
Budapest wrote:
A typical corp strategy is to extend the mid game as long as possible to score enough agendas to win the game.


What are some ways to do that?


That depends a lot on the deck. My point is rather, since you cannot keep a runner out in the end game don't build a deck that tries to keep them out. Popular mid game strategies involve taxing ice, traps, and wasting clicks. It's important to include such strategies in a successful corp deck.
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cassidy zimmerman
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Power Shutdown is your friend. And it's in-faction. It's one of the stronger cards for program trashing decks because a 0 or 1 mill shutdown can destroy the inti/fairy/datasucker that's been bugging you, and a 2 strength kill the corroder.

Honestly though, based on the card list (and truly, no offense meant) it looks like you're still figuring out the game for yourself (this is fine, most of us, myself included, are right there with you). The deck seems to have an optimistic and very narrow view of how the runner will play.

I'm struck by a few things:

1) All your ice is ETR ice (except Grim). ETR ice typically has one or two subroutines, and typically become easy and cheap to break. They also don't punish the runner for running without a breaker. You should consider more taxing ice (I admit tollbooth is actually a good example of this). Read this: http://thesatelliteuplink.blogspot.com/2014/02/shields-up-un...
Consider ice that presents a constant annoyance, rather than just an end the run subroutine. Something that may harm the runner, perhaps. Or be so irritating that it dissuades them from running (stacked pop up windows).

2) Do you have one core set? If you're serious about Archer, you almost always play 3 in Weyland. Perhaps you just have a single core, which is fine, but the consistency in setting up and landing the first Archer cannot be overstated.

3) You don't have a way to mitigate bad pub, so if you're not able to play fast around it (or integrate alternate ways to extend the mid game) the runner will rip you apart with free money. Over time, that's REALLY bad, as you don't have a way to speed up your scoring. Most weyland decks that immerse themselves in bad publicity do so because they're attempting a kill shot where the bad pub won't matter in the SeaSource trace.

4) Traps are a dicey way to play, mainly because only a few fire from R&D and they require investment if they're advance types. You usually can't depend on them because the Runner isn't compelled to run that remote.

5) You don't have a back up plan. It's not fast advance nor is it flatline. The only trick you have is program trashing and due to the recursion cards that have appeared, trashing is often no longer enough if the deck doesn't have the momentum to push agendas through. You're relying on ice and only ice, but ice only works for so long. You should consider an alternate strat (or even primary, as trashing is often an alternate strategy). Maybe fast advance (if you only have 1 core, this is almost impossible as you need 2 or 3 San Sans). Maybe it's flatline via Snare/Scorch or economic warfare via closed accounts, or maybe it's access restrictions with Ash or Caprice. Whatever it is, program trashing gets you so far.

Play more. Play different cards. Look at tourney winning decks on Stimhack.com and try to understand what they are trying to do and how they accomplish that. Try playing with less ice that has one stopping subroutine (like static) and more ice that has 3+ irritating subroutines (like say Ichi or Tsurugi). Try playing with punishment cards like power shutdown, scorched earth, closed accounts, snare or cards that actually DO force the runner to hit your traps by encouraging play when they aren't ready (subliminal messaging, sundew).
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Ian Neufeld
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One thing I've learned as a Corp is to include some strategy in the deck that will allow me to leverage an economic advantage into a win. The classic Weyland example is SEA+Scorch ... if I get a credit advantage over you, I can force you to take a tag and then burn you into the ground.

Not all decks use SEA+Scorch, but every deck should have something that they can use to push a big "WIN!" button if the Runner ends the turn poor. Some examples:

SEA + Scorch - A big pool of credits means the Runner can't prevent the trace which kills them.

Midseasons + Psychographics - A big pool of credits means lots of tags, which then means you can score huge agendas very fast.

Biotic Labor / SanSan City Grid - One extra click or one less advancement token is worth 4+ credits in the right situations. These cards turn 7 credits into gold.

Ash 2X3ZB9CY - As mentioned, if you have a lead over the Runner in credits, Ash forces them to run the server a second time. If they don't have the resources to do it this turn, then you have a scoring window to finish your agenda.

Wotan / Janus 1.0 / Hadrian's Wall / Heimdall 2.0 - Big Ice are incredibly expensive to break. Getting through a Heimdall 2.0 with a Corroder is 8 credits - an entire turn of Magnum Opus (if they have such a luxurious card available). Bonus points if the Ice can do damage to cripple the Runner and make them fear another run.

These are just a few examples of how some decks close out a win against a Runner. While you certainly have some Program Destruction that can open scoring windows for you, I don't feel that the Ice strategy in your deck sufficiently supports a "slow score out" strategy. Archer is most likely to land when the Runner is getting desperate and is making runs on a minimal budget. You would benefit from a strategy that pushes the Runner into that mindset.
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General Norris
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Not only you don't want to keep them out, you want them to get in, but on your own terms.
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Yi Sheng Siow
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how to keep the runner out?

play shutdown.
archived memories.
vitruvius.
corporate troubleshooter and grim.

destroy all their breakers and have 1 of the appropriate etr ice on each server. they will concede!
 
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Thomas Lundgren
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agentkuo wrote:
pirate_chef wrote:
Budapest wrote:
A typical corp strategy is to extend the mid game as long as possible to score enough agendas to win the game.


What are some ways to do that?

This.


Also, here's the most recent build of the deck I've been playing:

Weyland - What's He Hiding in There?

Weyland Consortium: Building a Better World (Core Set)

Agenda (10)
1x Geothermal Fracking (Opening Moves)
1x Government Contracts (A Study in Static)
3x Hostile Takeover (Core Set)
2x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
3x Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead)

Asset (8)
2x Aggressive Secretary (Core Set) ••••
3x GRNDL Refinery (Fear and Loathing)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••

Operation (9)
3x Beanstalk Royalties (Core Set)
3x Green Level Clearance (A Study in Static) •••
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)

Barrier (6)
1x Bastion (Creation and Control)
3x Ice Wall (Core Set)
2x Wall of Static (Core Set)

Code Gate (7)
3x Enigma (Core Set)
1x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••
3x Viper (Cyber Exodus) •••

Sentry (7)
2x Archer (Core Set)
3x Caduceus (What Lies Ahead)
2x Grim (Opening Moves)

ICE (2)
2x Chimera (Cyber Exodus)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Fear and Loathing

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.


Your deck doesn't seem to be built to stop the runner from making runs. Well, eventually, you maybe hit them with an Archer or Grim and then they stop making runs. Other than that, your ICE is very cheap to break, especially since you will be having bad pub from Grim, Hostile Takeover and Geothermal Fracking.
If you have not read this article, do it!
http://thesatelliteuplink.blogspot.se/2014/02/shields-up-und...

If you are tired of the runner just waltzing through your servers, maybe you should try to play a deck with more taxing ICE such as Nords' Red Coats or smth similar: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1141751/deck-the-red-coats
 
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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This is the rig destruction deck I played quite a lot recently.

Weyland Consortium: Building a Better World

Agenda (10)
1 Geothermal Fracking
3 Government Contracts
3 Hostile Takeover
3 Project Atlas

Asset (4)
2 Aggressive Secretary ••••
2 Jackson Howard ••

Upgrade (3)
3 Corporate Troubleshooter •••

Operation (13)
3 Beanstalk Royalties
2 Green Level Clearance ••
3 Hedge Fund
3 Power Shutdown
2 Successful Demonstration ••

Barrier (6)
3 Ice Wall
3 Wall of Static

Code Gate (4)
2 Enigma
2 Quandary

Sentry (7)
3 Archer
2 Grim
2 Rototurret ••

ICE (2)
2 Chimera

First the runner cannot run because they haven't installed breakers yet. Then they cannot run because I killed their breakers. Finally they cannot run because I scored 7 points and the game is over

Of course this doesn't work perfect, they will get some runs done. But the deck is quite effective at keeping them out. When playing, you have to focus on being really fast in scoring agendas, because eventually they will build and rebuild the rig and then you either need to already be at 7 points or at least close enough that they have to run your Aggressive Secretary. You give bad publicity left and right, so when they have breakers, they can run cheaply, you really need to get rid of them.
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Carl Frodge
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I'm also confined by the data packs I have. But here's a more recent build I made, how does it compare to the previously posted one?

Weyland

Weyland Consortium: Building a Better World (Core Set)

Agenda (10)
1x Corporate War (Future Proof)
1x Government Contracts (A Study in Static)
3x Hostile Takeover (Core Set)
2x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
3x Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead)

Asset (6)
1x Aggressive Secretary (Core Set) ••
3x GRNDL Refinery (Fear and Loathing)
2x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) ••

Operation (12)
3x Beanstalk Royalties (Core Set)
3x Green Level Clearance (A Study in Static) •••
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Subliminal Messaging (Fear and Loathing)

Barrier (6)
1x Curtain Wall (True Colors)
2x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof) ••
3x Ice Wall (Core Set)

Code Gate (6)
2x Enigma (Core Set)
2x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••••
2x Viper (Cyber Exodus) ••

Sentry (7)
2x Archer (Core Set)
3x Caduceus (What Lies Ahead)
2x Dracō (What Lies Ahead)

ICE (2)
2x Chimera (Cyber Exodus)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Fear and Loathing

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

Keep in mind, I made this build before reading the replies.
 
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Lluluien
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General_Norris wrote:
Not only you don't want to keep them out, you want them to get in, but on your own terms.


I think this is a really good point to think about. If you always keep the Runner out, then they are going to have a lot of money to attack you with when the hammer finally comes down. If you constantly are just stopping the run, spending money rezzing ICE without them spending to break it, then there will eventually come a point in the game where they have all the tools they need to really hurt you (say, full rig + 2 R&D interfaces + Account Siphon, for example) and the money to use them.

A couple of folks made a point in here of saying that you should keep in mind an attack vector for the Corp deck for translating your economic advantage into a win. A corollary to that based on what General Norris is saying would be to make sure you have an idea about what mechanism you're going to use to drain excess Runner economy away too.

Examples that may or may not fit your individual deck:

1) reduce agenda count to 9 in order to make late game R&D runs less fruitful

2) cards that masquerade as your agendas to induce runs against an expensive remote server (lots of info in my Never Advance thread for that one)

3) cards that make those runs fail and have to be redone or that require more prep than the Runner can pull off in one turn (Ash 2X3ZWH4T3V3R, Caprice Nisei, Red Herrings, NAPD Contract, tag strategy from my Edge/Snare/PSF NBN deck in the Never Advance thread)

4) cards for counterstriking the Runner after they spend their money (the obvious one is even named that - Punitive Counterstrike; others to think about are Snare setup in Supermodernism Weyland build, TGTBT->Closed Accounts->Midseason, and any other "play only if the Runner made a run last turn" are likely to be good candidates

5) Cards that are expensive to trash that give the Corp an advantage you don't want them to keep: SanSan City Grid, PAD Campaign, Marked Accounts, Melange/GRNDL Refinery in a deep remote, Sundew/Mental Health Clinic in Replicating Perfection and/or shallow remote, Private Contracts



Edit: All hail our Corporate Savior - note how Jackson Howard can fit into several of these. #1 by dumping agendas to Archives and not putting them back in R&D until you're forced to; #2 if you have some 3-difficulty agendas; trash cost is just high enough that #5 can be a factor even in a shallow remote.
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lluluien wrote:
General_Norris wrote:
Not only you don't want to keep them out, you want them to get in, but on your own terms.


I think this is a really good point to think about. If you always keep the Runner out, then they are going to have a lot of money to attack you with when the hammer finally comes down. If you constantly are just stopping the run, spending money rezzing ICE without them spending to break it, then there will eventually come a point in the game where they have all the tools they need to really hurt you (say, full rig + 2 R&D interfaces + Account Siphon, for example) and the money to use them.

A couple of folks made a point in here of saying that you should keep in mind an attack vector for the Corp deck for translating your economic advantage into a win. A corollary to that based on what General Norris is saying would be to make sure you have an idea about what mechanism you're going to use to drain excess Runner economy away too.

Examples that may or may not fit your individual deck:

1) reduce agenda count to 9 in order to make late game R&D runs less fruitful

2) cards that masquerade as your agendas to induce runs against an expensive remote server (lots of info in my Never Advance thread for that one)

3) cards that make those runs fail and have to be redone or that require more prep than the Runner can pull off in one turn (Ash 2X3ZWH4T3V3R, Caprice Nisei, Red Herrings, NAPD Contract, tag strategy from my Edge/Snare/PSF NBN deck in the Never Advance thread)

4) cards for counterstriking the Runner after they spend their money (the obvious one is even named that - Punitive Counterstrike; others to think about are Snare setup in Supermodernism Weyland build, TGTBT->Closed Accounts->Midseason, and any other "play only if the Runner made a run last turn" are likely to be good candidates

5) Cards that are expensive to trash that give the Corp an advantage you don't want them to keep: SanSan City Grid, PAD Campaign, Marked Accounts, Melange/GRNDL Refinery in a deep remote, Sundew/Mental Health Clinic in Replicating Perfection and/or shallow remote, Private Contracts



Edit: All hail our Corporate Savior - note how Jackson Howard can fit into several of these. #1 by dumping agendas to Archives and not putting them back in R&D until you're forced to; #2 if you have some 3-difficulty agendas; trash cost is just high enough that #5 can be a factor even in a shallow remote.


This is a great primer for new Corp player strategy.

So many new players try to stop the runner from getting into servers. The game is designed so that at some point the runner can get into any server. The Corp's job is to bait sub-optimal runs, using some/all of those mentioned, to get a window to score an agenda or to win the game before the runner can get in anywhere.
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