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Subject: Defiant rss

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steven parker
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Question for the designer, why oh why did you only give the defiant 3 attack and 2 agility while you have given Voyager 4 attack............

Makes no sense.
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Ellis Norris
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dsx01 wrote:
Question for the designer, why oh why did you only give the defiant 3 attack and 2 agility while you have given Voyager 4 attack............

Makes no sense.



...you new?
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Ryan Caputo
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To the producers of Star Trek, please make a runabout that can take on entire planets, there isn't enough people complaining about your last Mary Sue ship. Seriously compared to the newest generation vessels(voyager) yea the Defiant is just right.
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I like to consider Voyager as being completely upgraded over the seen years it was in the Delta Quadrant so compared to the "2nd" Defiant it should be a more powerful ship as far as I'm concerned.

Do what I do, give it a Flagship card and have fun.


This is coming from a Defiant fanboy btw.
 
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Ted Kay
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U.S.S. Defiant (24)
Flagship: Federation (10)
Jean-Luc Picard (6)
Cheat Death (5)
Cheat Death (5)
B'elanna Torres (4)
Lojur (2)
Tuvok (5)
Cold Storage Unit (5)
The Doctor (3)
Additional Weapons Array (5)
Antimatter Mines (5)
Dorsal Weapons Array (4)
Energy Dissipator (11)
Quantum Torpedoes (6)
Total (100)

Fleet total: 100

Generated by Space Dock for iOS
http://spacedockapp.org

Is this the kind of thing you were hoping for?

Shoots in any direction for no aux token with four dice. Maneuverability of Voyager combined with similar stats.

Bristling with weapon options for most engagements and situations.
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Nicholas Bazzano
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This is from another complete Defiant/DS9 fanboy...

I have no problem whatsoever with a warship designed purely to fight the Borg having only a 3 attack. I do have a problem with a small and maneuverable and fast MG range exploration starship having a 4 attack.

From a fan of Trek perspective, I find it ridiculous to let this little ship have the equal firepower of the Galaxy and Nebula class ships.

From a fan of the game, I hate that they have unbalanced the game by creating a Federation ship that has the maneuverability of a Defiant class ship, mixed with the firepower and toughness of the Galaxy, with the speed of the Excelsior, but without any of the disadvantages of these ships.

And now, all the Voyager fans can come back with their usual "it's a warship, not an exploration ship" comments.
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Paul Romer
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"Warship" or not it was the newest multi-purpose ship with cutting edge technology. Read the memory-alpha article on the Intrepid class. Just because it was small didn't mean it wasn't mighty. Everything on that ship was built to be powerful. It had the best shields starfleet could put out. It had a huge array of phasers. It could fire any torpedo starfleet had. It had the newest and most powerful warp core. It's size allowed for better maneuverability than a Galaxy. Just because a lot of the show wasn't written well doesn't mean the ship itself wasn't powerful, ESPECIALLY by the time it got back from the Delta Quadrant as the one in Attack Wing represents.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Intrepid_class
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Daniel Adams
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Considering Federation crew from the TNG era are put onto TOS ships, and vice versa, and said build can still be faction pure, I don't think Trek purists can complain.

But the way I look at it is like this:

The Defiant was built to fight and defeat the Borg. She was one of Sisko's projects before he took Command of Deep Space Nine, and had been in command of DS9 for three years by the time he brought the Defiant into service. Voyager, while launched at the same time, was virtually fresh off of the assembly line.

At the start of First Contact, finally doing what she was built for, the Defiant took a heavy beating. Voyager on the other hand, regularly survived encounters with the Borg with little or no damage.

Also, when the Enterprise D had a particularly stressful episode, she'd limp to Starbase numbers for repair. Likewise the Defiant had a port to call home on DS9. Voyager didn't have that luxury.

Finally... Admiral Ross has an Interpid Class Starship as his personal flagship. Surely at a time of war, he would want the best ship for combat available...

I love the Defiant, but in the game, she can handle herself... she can negate crits, and has that sweet turn move. I would like to see her with that extra point on sheilds or hull, but the fact that she can avoid crits means she more than lives up to her name as a 'tough little ship'
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Roy Stephens
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dsx01 wrote:
Question for the designer, why oh why did you only give the defiant 3 attack and 2 agility while you have given Voyager 4 attack............

Makes no sense.


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Trueflight Silverwing
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Consider that the Defiant was originally a failed attempt at a ship with too many problems to even be put into production at first and was mothballed. When using its full power, it would blow itself apart and had to be severely toned down from its original prototype before it could even be used effectively.

While Voyager on the other hand started out as the top of the line production ship with all the newest and best tech available, and then went through 7 years of tech upgrades and new modifications in the Delta Quadrant.

I'm not a Voyager fan (I think it was one of the worst series, beating out only ToS for worst ever) and I am a DS9 fan (I consider it second only to TNG), but I still think the stats are respectable for the two ships. Would I like to have seen the Defiant be a little stronger? Of course, but it is still a pretty good ship. I think what it really needs is a Pulse Phaser upgrade to make it really shine. Maybe an upgrade to make it so that Torpedoes don't disable after you fire them to represent the fact that the Defiant had 6 forward Torpedo launchers.
 
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Nicholas Bazzano
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FleetCaptDanAdams wrote:
Considering Federation crew from the TNG era are put onto TOS ships, and vice versa, and said build can still be faction pure, I don't think Trek purists can complain.

But the way I look at it is like this:

The Defiant was built to fight and defeat the Borg. She was one of Sisko's projects before he took Command of Deep Space Nine, and had been in command of DS9 for three years by the time he brought the Defiant into service. Voyager, while launched at the same time, was virtually fresh off of the assembly line.

At the start of First Contact, finally doing what she was built for, the Defiant took a heavy beating. Voyager on the other hand, regularly survived encounters with the Borg with little or no damage.

Also, when the Enterprise D had a particularly stressful episode, she'd limp to Starbase numbers for repair. Likewise the Defiant had a port to call home on DS9. Voyager didn't have that luxury.

Finally... Admiral Ross has an Interpid Class Starship as his personal flagship. Surely at a time of war, he would want the best ship for combat available...

I love the Defiant, but in the game, she can handle herself... she can negate crits, and has that sweet turn move. I would like to see her with that extra point on sheilds or hull, but the fact that she can avoid crits means she more than lives up to her name as a 'tough little ship'


Nice logical argument there. The Defiant is battered but not destroyed in the beginning of First Contact in a plot device to explain why Worf is in the movie, while the Voyager isn't destroyed after extensive upgrades during her own TV show, and therefore the Voyager should be the single most powerful Federation ship designed for Attack Wing.

Now, getting away from the usual fanboy arguments that are always based on "my favorite series was...therefore my ship should be the toughest", my point is simply that Voyager is too powerful in this game when compared to other Federation ships, and without any obvious drawback. Giving it a 3 Attack, with Voyager only upgrades (like Defiant's cloak) to boost it up, would have been a better route than making the Intrepid class better than the Enterprise D.
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Roy Stephens
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coastcityo wrote:
would have been a better route than making the Intrepid class better than the Enterprise D.


But, the Enterprise-D IS better than the Intrepid class... the Ent-D has a 360 firing arc, the Intrepid class ship does not.

Why? WHY am I getting involved in this???
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Raymond Albright
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I still believe the only thing the defiant is missing is a phaser cannon weapon upgrade.

make it like additional weapons array, and it would be exactly what that ship should be in context of how the game has been designed so far.

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Daniel Adams
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coastcityo wrote:
FleetCaptDanAdams wrote:
Considering Federation crew from the TNG era are put onto TOS ships, and vice versa, and said build can still be faction pure, I don't think Trek purists can complain.

But the way I look at it is like this:

The Defiant was built to fight and defeat the Borg. She was one of Sisko's projects before he took Command of Deep Space Nine, and had been in command of DS9 for three years by the time he brought the Defiant into service. Voyager, while launched at the same time, was virtually fresh off of the assembly line.

At the start of First Contact, finally doing what she was built for, the Defiant took a heavy beating. Voyager on the other hand, regularly survived encounters with the Borg with little or no damage.

Also, when the Enterprise D had a particularly stressful episode, she'd limp to Starbase numbers for repair. Likewise the Defiant had a port to call home on DS9. Voyager didn't have that luxury.

Finally... Admiral Ross has an Interpid Class Starship as his personal flagship. Surely at a time of war, he would want the best ship for combat available...

I love the Defiant, but in the game, she can handle herself... she can negate crits, and has that sweet turn move. I would like to see her with that extra point on sheilds or hull, but the fact that she can avoid crits means she more than lives up to her name as a 'tough little ship'


Nice logical argument there. The Defiant is battered but not destroyed in the beginning of First Contact in a plot device to explain why Worf is in the movie, while the Voyager isn't destroyed after extensive upgrades during her own TV show, and therefore the Voyager should be the single most powerful Federation ship designed for Attack Wing.

Now, getting away from the usual fanboy arguments that are always based on "my favorite series was...therefore my ship should be the toughest", my point is simply that Voyager is too powerful in this game when compared to other Federation ships, and without any obvious drawback. Giving it a 3 Attack, with Voyager only upgrades (like Defiant's cloak) to boost it up, would have been a better route than making the Intrepid class better than the Enterprise D.


Forgive me, I was just trying to offer an 'in universe' explanation as to why the Interpid class might actually be better than the defiant class. I'm not a Voyager fanboy, in fact part of me thinks the show might have been interesting if it was set on the claustrophic environment of a Def Class.

The non fictional reason is a lot simpler.

At the end of the day, the choices behind Voyager's the power could be explained away by any number of things in the real world. Personally, I believe that they wanted a ship in Wave 4 that could hang with the Borg, but the only reason that matters is "its Wizkids call" and its up to them

Don't get me wrong - Wave 4 should *touches wood* arrive here tomorrow. I have an OP6 at one retailer on Saturday, and OP5 at another on Sunday, and both have decided with the customers that Wave 4 ships aren't allowed as the Dominion scenarios weren't designed with any of those ships in mind. How you and your fellow players choose to use any ship from Attack Wing (or not) is up to you

I'm just going to keep enjoying the game
 
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I think the fact that Defiant class has the firepower of a Heavy Cruiser in an escort size ship shows how strong it is :-)

She is shown is DS9 as a ship that can fight out of her weight class, but she is still not as powerful as full up Galaxy or even a Intrepid class. If her class was really super ships why wouldn't Star Fleet just build all Defiant class ships? ok beyond the fact that its a tv show, and more ship models are interesting and cheaper to use :-)




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bigrayalbright wrote:
I still believe the only thing the defiant is missing is a phaser cannon weapon upgrade.

make it like additional weapons array, and it would be exactly what that ship should be in context of how the game has been designed so far.



I had an idea for this it was a cross of secondary torpedo launcher/ additional weapons array/Quantums. The rough idea was you could use it as a discard to do (some number) of dice as a 2nd attack if you hit with your primary, or attack with it on it's own (disable) to do 3/4? attack with some effect, but both only at range 1.

I was thinking of a 4/5 point cost, but that might be to low as secondary torpedo and weapons array are cost 4, and this would be better but has less range.

I think we will see some type of Phaser upgrade for the mirror defiant.

 
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Lets all keep in mind that in First Contact the Defiant captained by Worf was about to ram into the Borg Cube in a blaze of Honor. zombie





Oh Worf, clearly not a 9 Skill Captain.



Here is Voyager 'tanking' a Tactical Cube like a boss and getting some pot shots in as well.





Even my Defiant fanboy'ism can't dispute that the Defiant was fairly ineffective against the Cube so.... Defiant attack 3.

Like I said, put a Flagship card on it and have fun!
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Sodoff Baldrick
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The defiant class was never designed to take on the borg single handedly. There was supposed to be an entire fleet of them, with big guns in little ships. Considering its size an attack value of 3 is appropriate for this game. Since in the game it has the same attack value as a Romulan Warbird, there should be no complaints on behalf of the defiant.
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Jorge Rodriguez
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Um, Isn't the next Defiant a Constitution class cruiser from the Enterprise series Mirror universe episodes?
 
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Daniel Hensel
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MaximumDT wrote:
I like to consider Voyager as being completely upgraded over the seen years it was in the Delta Quadrant so compared to the "2nd" Defiant it should be a more powerful ship as far as I'm concerned.

Do what I do, give it a Flagship card and have fun.


This is coming from a Defiant fanboy btw.

A "completely upgraded" Voyager should be represented by upgrades, not stat line boosts. It comes with a very significant assortment of upgrades too, so I don't see how you can justify an inflated stat line with the concept that it is supposed to represent Voyager as it was near the end of its journey through the delta quadrant.

Voyager was described as being "quick and smart" which is well-reflected in its maneuver dial. I can totally get behind the 5-shields (4-shields for generic) to represent the cutting edge technology that went into the ship's design. The 4-attack and the 2-agility still bother me though. Its primary weapons may have been more advanced and its warp core and power distribution system my be more efficient than that of a Galaxy class ship, but that by no means indicates that it is more powerful. Also, I can't think of anything that would indicate that Voyager is significantly better at performing evasive maneuvers than comparable-sized Federation ships. Voyager survived the delta quadrant, and specifically the Borg, not because of its firepower or its ability to shake off attacks, but by being resourceful, lucky, and being able to get the heck out of dodge when it really needs to.
 
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brooklyn wargamer wrote:
Um, Isn't the next Defiant a Constitution class cruiser from the Enterprise series Mirror universe episodes?


I was hoping we were getting this.



A bit more than a DS9 mirror universe Defiant.


Granted either one is fine by me, perhaps both eventually.
 
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Mr_Tricorder wrote:

Voyager was described as being "quick and smart" which is well-reflected in its maneuver dial. I can totally get behind the 5-shields (4-shields for generic) to represent the cutting edge technology that went into the ship's design. The 4-attack and the 2-agility still bother me though. Its primary weapons may have been more advanced and its warp core and power distribution system my be more efficient than that of a Galaxy class ship, but that by no means indicates that it is more powerful. Also, I can't think of anything that would indicate that Voyager is significantly better at performing evasive maneuvers than comparable-sized Federation ships. Voyager survived the delta quadrant, and specifically the Borg, not because of its firepower or its ability to shake off attacks, but by being resourceful, lucky, and being able to get the heck out of dodge when it really needs to.


It has the same weapons systems as the Galaxy and Nebula classes (probably even a bit more efficient given they are almost a decade newer). The 4 attack is reasonably justified.

As to the agility, watch the show, its an agile ship. That particular stat was pretty much a given before anything was previewed.
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hockeyjedi wrote:
dsx01 wrote:
Question for the designer, why oh why did you only give the defiant 3 attack and 2 agility while you have given Voyager 4 attack............

Makes no sense.



Can I bring up, that the Romulan cloak is over powered.
Love the post.
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Nicholas Bazzano
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MaximumDT wrote:
Lets all keep in mind that in First Contact the Defiant captained by Worf was about to ram into the Borg Cube in a blaze of Honor. zombie





Oh Worf, clearly not a 9 Skill Captain.



Here is Voyager 'tanking' a Tactical Cube like a boss and getting some pot shots in as well.





Even my Defiant fanboy'ism can't dispute that the Defiant was fairly ineffective against the Cube so.... Defiant attack 3.

Like I said, put a Flagship card on it and have fun!


Still not arguing against Defiant being a 3 Attack. Perfectly happy with the 3 Attack on the Defiant.

I'm just opposed to the Voyager having nothing but pluses, and no negatives to balance it out FROM A GAME PLAY PERSPECTIVE.

The Enterprise D has one more Hull, and one less agility than a generic Intrepid class. It has the 360 phaser at range 1-2, and turns like a stretch Hummer limo while the Intrepid spins like a top. Why on Earth would anyone Fed player ever choose any ship that isn't an Intrepid class ever again? Hell, a three Intrepid class fleet with little points in upgrades seems a no brainer.

From A GAME BALANCE PERSPECTIVE, it seems a 3 attack for the Intrepid would have been a better choice. Seeing how good this thing is, just makes me scared to even think about what the Soverign class will look like. 5-2-5-5 anyone?
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Daniel Adams
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- Not being able to reverse
- The named version ability requires you to take on an aux token, making your next move obvious
- 30 points for the named - 30% of your build, before you factor in crew and upgrades
- 28 points for the generic - more than a quarter of your build, before you factor in crew and upgrades, without any special ability.

Just a few drawbacks to the ships themselves from where I'm sitting, which balance out the stats and manouvers
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