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Subject: [Challenge] Bagbiter's Riddle rss

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Andrew
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No, not the raven thing.

What's the minimum turns you can use to draw your entire deck into your hand. No discarding, every card is either in your hand or used. Any runner ID is allowed (except the special draft one). You have to have the hand size to not discard at the end of the turn. Tie breaker is who has more credits at the end of the turn.

Ready? Set? Draw!

Edit: Additional rules about corp behavior added below: Neutral interaction with the corp. You can make runs against iceless central servers but the only cards you ever access are untrashable operations. If you account siphon they have credits to steal, but if you leave tags between turns then the corp will trash 3 resources as evilly as possible.

Edit 2: No trashing cards in your hand, and no installing cards that you don't use. Also no damaging yourself.
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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1. Can I assume perfect shuffle luck?
2. Can I assume the corp helping me?
 
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Sebastian Barth
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hsiale wrote:

2. Can I assume the corp helping me?

10: Medical Fundraiser x3
20: Reclamation Order -> Medical Fundraiser. Archived Memories -> Reclamation Order.
30: GOTO 10
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Jure Volarevic
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This is probably not the minimum but here it goes:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
ID: Andromeda, 45 cards deck

Turn 1:

9 cards in grip, 5 credits, 36 cards in stack

-Play Account Siphon 3 times, play Bagbiter (assume corp has 15 credits and didn't ice HQ [like anyone would ever do that against Andromeda])

5 cards in grip, 32 credits, 36 cards in stack

Turn 2:

-Play Sure Gamble 3 times, play Duggar's

1 card in grip, 42 credits, 36 cards in stack

Turn 3:

-Use Duggar's

11 card in grip, 42 credits, 26 cards in stack

Turn 4:

- Use Duggar's

21 card in grip, 42 credits, 16 cards in stack

Turn 5:

- Use Duggar's

31 card in grip, 42 credits, 6 cards in stack

Turn 6:

-Use Duggar's

At the end of turn 6 you have 37 cards in your grip, 8 cards in your heap and 42 credits. You can have even more credits if we assume corp plays that new operation that gives runner money... oh wait, I just realized Duggar's is not released yet


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Andrew
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Yes, perfect shuffle luck. Neutral interaction with the corp. You can make runs against iceless servers but the only cards you ever access are untrashable operations. If you account siphon they have credits to steal, but if you leave tags between turns then the corp will trash 3 resources as evilly as possible.

EDIT: The above solution ignored that Bagbiter empties your credit pool when you play him. Text for reference:

Cost: 3
Resource- Connection
When you install Theophilius Bagbiter, lose all credits in your credit pool.
Your maximum hand size is equal to the number of credits in your credit pool.
Influence - Criminal 4
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John O'Brien
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By the end of turn 5:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
As a 40-card runner (e.g. Chaos Theory)

Corp 1: anything

1: Play Duggar's, Play Bagbiter, Easy Mark, Easy Mark
6 creds, 1 card in hand, 35 in deck

Corp 2: Medical Research Fundraiser x 3
15 creds

2: Quality Time, Sure Gamble, Sure Gamble, Sure Gamble
24 creds, 2 cards in hand, 30 in deck

Corp 3: Reclamation Order (MRF), Archived Memories (RO), MRF
27 creds

3: Use Duggar's
27 creds, 12 cards in hand, 20 in deck

Corp 4: MRF x 2, Reclamation Order (MRF)
33 creds

4: Use Duggar's
33 creds, 22 cards in hand, 10 in deck

Corp 5: MRF x 3
42 creds

5: Use Duggar's
42 creds, 32 cards in hand, 0 in deck
 
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Cooperative corp variant: 3 turns

Runner part is quite simple.
Turn 1: John Masanori, Theophilus Bagbiter, Account Syphon, Tallie Perrault.
Turn 2: Account Syphon, Diesel x3.
Turn 3: Account Syphon, Quality Time x3.
Cards you draw: 5 at the start of the game, 3 from John, 9 from Diesel, 15 from Quality Time. 8 remaining.
Cards you play: 12.
Credits you get: 30 from Account Syphons, 5 at the start of the game.
Credits you spend: 7 on John + Theo + Tallie, 9 on Quality Time.

This means that, to draw your remaining cards with Tallie, you need the corp to have 8 bad publicity by the end of your turn 3 (of course you are Silhouette so you have 40 cards deck). Additionally, you want to support a 28-card hand and (30+5-7-9) you have only 19 from your own activity (this is good, because the corp can give you remaining 9 via Medical Research Fundraisers, but needs to play 3 of them and do this turns 2 and 3 because otherwise you lose cash due to playing Theo).

So now the riddle is: how to get to 8 bad pub by the end of turn 3 and squeeze 3 MRF into this? This also is quite easy.

You are GRNDL. Your influence is spent on 1x Director Haas, 3x Medical Research Fundraiser, 2x Accelerated Diagnostics.
Turn 1 you install and rez Director Haas, then score a Hostile Takeover. You are at 2 bad publicity.
Turn 2 you play Accelerated Diagnostics hitting Medical Research Fundraiser x3. Then you play Subliminal Messaging. Then you play another Accelerated Diagnostics, hitting Power Shutdown x3. With two clicks left you draw 2 cards. You are at 6 bad publicity.
Turn 3 you play Subliminal Messaging x2, taking you to 8 bad publicity. Mission completed.

Possible hard level (not sure if there is a solution): do this without Accelerated Diagnostics (hint: I think the corp should be NEXT Design in this case).
 
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Nushura
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I can do it in 4 turns

Spoiler (click to reveal)
As a 40-card runner (e.g. Chaos Theory)

Corp 1: Install a Komainu. From there on I need him/her to play 3xMedical Fundraisers (so that I get 9 credits)

Runner 1: Start the turn with 35 cards in Stack 5 in hand
Install Johny Masanory (-1 hand)
Wyldside (-1 hand)
Quality Time (-5 reserve, +5 hand)
Run (lose all hand and draw an extra card).

Runner 2: Start with 29 in Stack, 1 in hand
Effect of Wyldside: draw 2 cards
Quality Time (-5 reserve, +5 hand)
Quality Time (-5 reserve, +5 hand)
Run (lose all hand and draw an extra card).

Corp 3: Nothing
Runner 3: Start with 16 in Stack, 1 in hand
Effect of Wyldside: draw 2 cards
Diesel (-3 reserve, +3 hand)
Diesel (-3 reserve, +3 hand)
Run (lose all hand and draw an extra card).

Corp 4: Nothing
Runner 4: Start with 7 in Stack, 1 in hand
Effect of Wyldside: draw 2 cards
Diesel (-3 reserve, +3 hand)
Click to Draw (-1 Reserve, +1 hand
Run (lose all hand and draw an extra card).

Done!

In total I spend 9 on Quality Times, 2 on John Masanori and 3 on Wyldside...for a total of 14 credits
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Jure Volarevic
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Completely forgot about Bagbiter removing the money. Here is take two:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Chaos Theory, 40 cards

Turn 1:

Play Duggar's, play Bagbiter, play Easy Mark two times

1 card in hand, 35 in deck, 6 credits

Corp play Medical Research Fundraiser 3 times, you are now at 15 credits.

Turn 2:

Play Quality Time to draw 5 cards and than play Push your Luck 3 times and win every time.
- Bid 10, get 20
- Bid 18, get 36
- Bid 34, get 68

You now have 2 cards in hand, 68 credits and 30 cards in stack

Turns 3-5:

Use Duggar's
 
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Paul Imboden
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AnSteWe wrote:
If you account siphon they have credits to steal, but if you leave tags between turns then the corp will trash 3 resources as evilly as possible.


You mean, and not played Closed Accounts? devil
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Robert S
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I can do it in 4 turns (without really needing Bagbiter...)
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Chaos Theory

Turn 1:
Install New Angeles City Hall (NACH) (4 in Grip)
Install Joshua B (JB) (3 in Grip)
Play Quality Time (QT) (7 in Grip)
Play Freelance Coding Contract (FCC) -> Trash 5 Programs for 10 C (1 in Grip)

30 Cards in Stack remaining, 1 Card in Grip, 10 C

Turn 2:
Activate JB
Play Diesel (3 in Grip)
Play QT (7 in Grip)
Play QT (11 in Grip)
Install Bagbiter (10 in Grip) ***
Play FCC -> Trash 5 Programs for 10 C (4 in Grip)
Pay 2 C to avoid Tag

17 Card in Stack remaining, 4 Cards in Grip, 8 C

Turn 3:
Activate JB
Play Diesel (6 in Grip)
Play Diesel (8 in Grip)
Play FCC -> Trash 5 Programs for 10 C (2 in Grip)
Draw (3 in Grip)
Draw (4 in Grip)
Pay 2 C to avoid Tag

9 Card in Stack remaining, 4 Cards in Grip, 16 C

Turn 4:
Activate JB
Install Starlight Crusade Funding (3 in Grip)
Play Lawyer Up (LU) (5 in Grip)
Play LU (7 in Grip)
Play LU (9 in Grip)
Play Lucky Find (8 in Grip) ***
Pay 2 C to avoid Tag (optional)

0 Card in Stack remaining, 8 Cards in Grip, 13 (15 with Tag) C

*** Ignore Bagbiter and Play Sure Gamble before the QT and use Mass Install Wizard as your last Action to install 3 cheap Programs with only 5 Cards in Grip remaining.



Without FCC I need 5 turns and a slightly helpful Corp or 4 turns and a really helpful Corp and not yet released Cards.

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Andrew
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Makun gets points for a clever work around the rules by "using" cards with freelance coding contact instead of discarding them. But that's not in the spirit of the challenge so I'm adding a new rule:

No trashing cards in your hand, and no installing cards that you don't use. Also no damaging yourself.

The rest of you are using a helpful Corp which is boring. No one besides Makun has posted a real solution yet.
 
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John O'Brien
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AnSteWe wrote:
Makun gets points for a clever work around the rules by "using" cards with freelance coding contact instead of discarding them. But that's not in the spirit of the challenge so I'm adding a new rule:

No trashing cards in your hand, and no installing cards that you don't use. Also no damaging yourself.


Really? So no trashing with Capstone either, for instance? And no Mass Install to get cards out of your hand?
 
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Andrew
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Opie wrote:
AnSteWe wrote:
If you account siphon they have credits to steal, but if you leave tags between turns then the corp will trash 3 resources as evilly as possible.


You mean, and not played Closed Accounts? devil
I figured trashing bagbiter is going to ruin most plans that include floating tags. If someone can work around that if be impressed to see it.
 
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Andrew
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strayjohno wrote:
AnSteWe wrote:
Makun gets points for a clever work around the rules by "using" cards with freelance coding contact instead of discarding them. But that's not in the spirit of the challenge so I'm adding a new rule:

No trashing cards in your hand, and no installing cards that you don't use. Also no damaging yourself.


Really? So no trashing with Capstone either, for instance? And no Mass Install to get cards out of your hand?
The point is to use bagbiter and end with 20-30 cards in your grip. If you already have him out an easy mark gains you three hand size which is a better gain then mass install anyways. Mass trashing with capstone to cycle through your deck is also not what I'm looking for. Believe it or not this exercise has a purpose. I'm looking for ways to make bagbiter work to make a deck with a bag of tricks all in hand. Tutoring through drawing everything.
 
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Captain Frisk
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AnSteWe wrote:
I'm looking for ways to make bagbiter work to make a deck with a bag of tricks all in hand. Tutoring through drawing everything.


Man - Komainu is really going to make this deck angry.
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John O'Brien
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OK, a re-run of my original attempt, but without a helpful Corp:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
As a 40-card runner (e.g. Chaos Theory)

1: Install Duggar's, Install Bagbiter, Easy Mark, Easy Mark
6 creds, 1 cards in hand, 35 in deck

2: Diesel, Sure Gamble, Sure Gamble, Quality Time
11 creds, 5 cards in hand, 27 in deck

3: Install Starlight Crusade Funding, Lucky Find, Lucky Find, Lucky Find
28 creds, 1 cards in hand, 27 in deck

4: (Sell SCF to Aesop's), Duggar's
31 creds, 11 cards in hand, 17 in deck

5: Duggar's
31 creds, 21 cards in hand, 7 in deck

6: (Sell Duggar's I guess), Quality Time, Draw, Draw, ...
31 creds, 27 cards in hand, empty deck
 
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Andrew
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Magic appearing aseops? And using Duggers which isn't out yet...
 
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Captain Frisk
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My best so far is 19 clicks, but it requires a semi complicit corp - who is making sure I can siphon them each turn by gaining credits but doesn't block the siphon off HQ.

I didn't use push your luck because that's even further away from the spirit of the challenge.

Spoiler (click to reveal)

Andromeda (45)

Card draw:

Lawyer up (9)
Quality Time (15)
Diesel (9)

Thats 33 cards drawn. Andy draws 9 (42). Massanori draws and extra 3 if you are siphoning (for econ)

1 Install massanori (3 Credits remaining / 8 cards in hand / 36 cards in deck)
2 Install bagbiter (0 / 7 / 36)
3 easy mark (3 / 6/ 36)
4 easy mark (6 / 5/ 36) - we're good on hand size.

5. siphon (16 / 5 / 35) - (card draw due to masanori)
6. Lawyer up (14 / 7 / 32)
7. LU
8 Quality Time (11 / 11 / 27) - we're good on hand size, just barely

9. siphon (21 / 11 / 26)
10. Lawyer up (19 / 13 / 23)
11. LU
12. Diesel (19 / 15 / 20) - can't use QT here because you'd be $1 short

13. siphon (29 / 15 / 19)
14. Lawyer up (27 / 17 / 16)
15. LU
16. Quality Time (24 / 21 / 11)

17. Diesel (24, 23, 8)
18. Diesel (24, 25, 5)
19. Quality Time (21, 29, 0)
20. you won - although you do have an econ problem now.
 
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John O'Brien
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AnSteWe wrote:
Magic appearing aseops? And using Duggers which isn't out yet...


... You passed the test!

I installed Duggar's turn one Didn't realise Duggar's was restricted, but my Aesop's must have got lost in an edit.

Should have proofread it. shake

EDIT: Misinterpreted your comment.
 
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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AnSteWe wrote:
The rest of you are using a helpful Corp which is boring.

OK. Could you define precisely the corp's play algorithm? I'm asking because to search for a perfect solution I really need to know exactly what they will do in any situation - you ruled out a perfectly helpful corp and the perfectly unhelpful corp is probably out as well (because if it isn't then your runner plan needs for example be resilient to corp aiming to flatline you with a double Ronin turn 2 such corp will flatline you with double Ronin turn 1 and you won't be able to do anything to prevent this).
 
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Captain Frisk
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hsiale wrote:
AnSteWe wrote:
The rest of you are using a helpful Corp which is boring.

OK. Could you define precisely the corp's play algorithm? I'm asking because to search for a perfect solution I really need to know exactly what they will do in any situation - you ruled out a perfectly helpful corp and the perfectly unhelpful corp is probably out as well (because if it isn't then your runner plan needs for example be resilient to corp aiming to flatline you with a double Ronin turn 2).


I'm starting to think that this challenge doesn't have an answer.

I therefor declare that the corp's turn is:

1. Accelerated Diagnostics (Interns (Posted Bounty), Shipment From SanSan, Shipment from SanSan)
(score PB - give tag)
2. Accelerated diagnostics (Beanstalk, Scorch, Scorch)
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Sean Trundle
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If we're using Duggar's, why not Cache? Here's a solution in 6 turns; the only thing it requires of the corp is that they don't clear virus counters on turn 2.

Identity: Andromeda (Starting: 9 cards in hand / 5 credits / 36 cards in stack)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Click 1: Sure Gamble (9/8/36)
Click 2: Daily Casts(a) (6/7/36)
Click 3: Daily Casts (b) (3/6/36)
Click 4: Aesop's Pawnshop (2/5/36)

Turn 2: Take 4 from Casts(a/b) (6/5/36)

Click 1: Cache (5/4/36)
Click 2: Cache (4/3/36)
Click 3: Cache (3/2/36)
Click 4: Theophilus Bagbiter (0/1/36)
Click 4a: Clear all 3 Caches (9/1/36)

Turn 3: Take 4 from Casts(a/b), Pawn one Cache (16/1/36)

Click 1: Quality Time (13/5/31)
Click 2: Duggar's (11/4/31)
Click 3: Daily Casts(c) (8/3/31)
Click 4: Draw 1 card (8/4/30)

Turn 4: Take 6 from Casts(a/b/c), Pawn second Cache (17/4/30)

Click 1-4: Use Duggar's (17/14/20)

Turn 5: Take 6 from Casts(a/b expire), Pawn third Cache (26/14/20)

Click 1-4: Use Duggar's (26/24/10)

Turn 6: Take 2 from Casts(c), Pawn it (31/24/10)

Click 1: Quality Time (28/29/5)
Click 2: Quality Time (25/34/0)
Click 3: Sure Gamble (29/33/0)
Click 4: Sure Gamble (33/32/0)

9 influence spent -- 3x Quality Time, 1x Duggar's, 1x Aesop's.

You've still got a Duggar's available for Pawning on Turn 7, as well.


I might waste the rest of my workday working on a solution that only involves the current card pool. But a) I don't see a way to beat the Siphon/Lawyer Up combo above, and b) I think counting on unlimited Siphons is silly (I recognize this is already a pretty silly exercise).

Edit: Ugh - thought Bagbiter was 2 to install. Have to switch a couple of things around in the first couple turns.

Edit 2: Okay, I think it's fixed, and it's no longer dependent on the core not clearing virus counters, since they're installed and cleared in one turn.
 
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Captain Frisk
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strundle wrote:
I might waste the rest of my workday working on a solution that only involves the current card pool. But a) I don't see a way to beat the Siphon/Lawyer Up combo above, and b) I think counting on unlimited Siphons is silly (I recognize this is already a pretty silly exercise).


I can shave 1 click off of the siphon solution above by replacing the 2nd easy mark with a dirty laundry!
 
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Sean Trundle
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Okay, here's what I'm working on so far. It's another 6 turn solution; even sillier than Siphon since it relies on 2 open servers for security tests. Obviously some room to trim since I end up overdrawing with that last click and some extra credits. Also, I think Andy is better for this exercise; even though Silhouette appears at first glance to need 1 less draw, she has to play a Diesel/QT earlier and those early clicks are precious.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Silhouette (5 credits/ 5 cards in hand/ 35 cards in stack)

Click 1: Sure Gamble (9 / 4 / 35)
Click 2: Daily Casts(a) (6 / 3 / 35)
Click 3: Security Testing (6 / 2 / 35)
Click 4: Security Testing (6 / 1 / 35)

Turn 2: Take 2 from Daily Casts (8 / 1 / 35)

Click 1: Quality Time (5 / 5 / 30)
Click 2: Doppleganger (3 / 4 / 30)
Click 3: John Masanori (1 / 3 / 30)
Click 4: Run: Security Test (3 / 4 / 31)
Bonus Click: Run: Security Test (5 / 4 / 31)

Turn 3: Take 2 from Casts (a) (7 / 4 / 31)

Click 1: Daily Casts(b) (4 / 3 / 31)
Click 2: Aesop's Pawnshop (3 / 2 / 31)
Click 3: Theophilus Bagbiter (0 / 1 / 31)
Click 4: Run: Security Test (2 / 2 / 30)
Bonus Click: Run: Security Test (4 / 2 / 30)

Turn 4: Take 4 from Daily Casts (a/b), Pawn Casts (a) (11 / 2 / 30)

Click 1: Diesel (11 / 4 / 25)
Click 2: Diesel (11 / 6 / 22)
Click 3: Bank Job (10 / 5 / 22)
Click 4: Dirty Laundry: Bank Job - take 7, leave 1 (20 / 5 / 21)
Bonus Click: Run: Security Test (22 / 5 / 21)

Turn 5: Take 2 from Casts (b), Pawn Bank Job (27 / 5 / 21)
Click 1: Quality Time (24 / 9 / 16)
Click 2: Quality Time (21 / 13 / 11)
Click 3: Diesel (21 / 15 / 9)
Click 4: Dirty Laundry: Security Test (28 / 15 / 8)
Bonus Click: Run: Security Test (30 / 15 / 8)

Turn 6: Take 2 from Casts (b), Pawn Casts (b) (35 / 15 / 8)
Click 1: Install Starlight Crusade Funding (34 / 14 / 8)
Click 2: Lawyer Up (32 / 16 / 5)
Click 3: Lawyer Up (30 / 18 / 2)
Click 4: Lawyer Up (28 / 20 / 0)

Pawn Starlight Crusade on turn 7, ending with (31 / 20 / 0)
 
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