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Freddy Dekker
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Many years ago I bought this game called memoir.
It had miniatures and as I like those I was sure to be onto a winner.
Played a few games with the kids and they sort of enjoyed it, but the 3 sections were a pest as you sometime couldn't do what you wanted to.
After those few games there was little enthousiasm to play more so it was shelfed.

Not long after I bought Battlelore, again miniatures but with monsters this time, so that seemed like it might really appeal to the boys, but for some reason I could never get them interested in playing this.
Don't know why, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it played simular to memoir.

So, many years later, I find this game called C&C Napoleonics, which looks interesting but as it's related to memoir I'm reluctant to buy.
Afterall who needs another shelf filler.
As the game keeps popping up on my radar, I am starting to feel the influence of positive reviews and in the end I decide I must give it a go.

Purchase made, game set up, taking quite some time to explain it all and than to my surprise they really like this.wow
First game is a bit of an exploration and no doubt we got a number of things wrong, but we had fun.

Second game not long after and again we are enjoying this and starting to understand how things work...


Now I like the rules and the square forming and the battle back and all those extras really work for the game, but nevertheless there is something I have a problem with. or rather doesn't seem realistic to me.

Mind you I'm not saying there is something wrong with the game, so no need to get defensive, just some things I would have liked to see differently and we may make a house rule for and change it.
provided it works.

Number one: say there is an infantry unit which gets attacked by cavalry and it decides to not form square. We checked the rule concerning the down side but couldn't really find anything.
You get to fire full force and you do not lose your mobility.

Historically you could assume that they'd be toast, unless they managed to get off a Lucky salvo and take out the charging enemy.

In the game, after refusing square, the cav. roles the d6 and than the infantry does the same and somehow that doesn't seem right to me.

Now in the real life situation, the cavalry would charge, the infantry would wait for the command and fire. (and most likely run like hell)
so I think the infantry should fire i.e. role d6 first

The cavalry would take hits, but the momentum would take them forward and crash into the infantry men, if they wouldn't have run by than.
so cavalry should role 2nd.

To represent the cav. charging which means they won't stop for anything and the infantry being disrupted, I think the cav. should be allowed to throw an extra d6.
Now the infantry will be disrupted and in no condition to fight so I'd make it a rule they must retreat 3 hexes.
The cavalery will enter the hex the infantry just occupied and both units will not be available for combat in the next turn.
Thoes portraying them both trying to rally and licking their wounds.

To show a unit is unavailable I'd place the remaining blocks flat on the board.
Should either unit be attacked while they are unavailable, they are allowed to retreat a hex without combat.


It is possible that I'm overthinking this, as I'm known to, but it came to me during a very boring meeting in which the mind had opportunity to wander -or face death by boredome - I am going to try how this works for sure.

Cavalry/infantry combat simply didn't seem right in the no square situation as it isn't punishing enough for the unit that choses to stay in line and receive the charge.

Than there is the artillery.
During our game I found that the enemy artillery was bloody strong.
There was a consideration to melee attack until I noticed the ods and that I'd be screwed for sure. Especially as in our games the artillery token doesn't come up that often [if you need it].

Very realistic of course as grape shot will do that to a unit.
But again infantry attacks, roles d6 first
than remaining artillery attacks.[battle back]

Now in real life, the infantry would have advanced on the guns, who'd be busy changing amo to grapeshot and probably fire before the infantry got into a good firing distance.
So I think artillery should actually have the first d6 role during melee.

Any infantry left would than get a change to fire i.e. melee.

Now I rather like the cavalry bounce back rule and wonder if it could not be applied here aswell.
I mean artillery fires, infantry left goes into melee and if that is unsuccesfull i.e. still artillery left in position, they must retreat some hexes.

I'd imagine that if you attacked guns and things went pearshaped, you'd be in a hurry to get out of range of said guns before they could fire again.


Also wondered about artillery being attacked by two units.
In the current situation unit one attacks, artillery fires, than same goes for unit 2, artillery fires.

Now I don't think that is right, as in real life it is unlikely that after the melee, the artillery would be ready to receive a fresh attacker.
So maybe instead the artillery should be allowed to retreat to a new position.

I'm not sure if anybody has allready given thought to fore mentioned situation and you'll probably say that I should have waited till I had played many more games before I spoke my mind.

But while playing there seemed something illogical about said situations and I don't think it would be very complicated to change things so they'd have a more realistic feel.

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Uwe Heilmann
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Hi from Germany,

here is my understanding of the "square".

This formation was the defence pattern of choice of the Napoleonic wars (and continued well into the 19th century, for example for British troops fighting in Africa during the colonial wars) for infantry against cavalry attacks.

The rules of the game do not force the "infantry" player to change to square as one of his infantry units is to going to be attacked by cavalry.
The choice is always his, although there are cases that preclude any more squares to form (e.g. terrain, lack of sufficient Command cards).

The advantages and disadvantages of the square formation are clear.

The infantry in square formation fires FIRST against the attacking cavalry. One die only, but still FIRST. Yes, there are cases where this one die would be "lost", but that gives evidence about bad positioning of infantry and/or clever attacks by the other player.

If the cavalry "survives" this barrage fire, they strike ... but with only one die (again, this could be cancelled completely; stupid attack decision and so on).
Yes, infantry in square formation is a sitting duck for artillery and infantry fire. But it is the players' tasks to balance the advantages and disadvantages.

If the infantry stays "out of square formation", the troops keep their full combat power. But! The cavalry will crash into the ranks FIRST! Not just one die is rolled for them, but the full complement of dice depending on troop quality, strength, terrain, what have you.

I think the original game system provides all rules needed for this specific situation where it comes to the decision to change to square or not.


Cheers
U.L.H.

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Thom Brennan
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Welcome to the C&C:N club.

I'd encourage you to play a few more games with the rules "as is." I find there's an enormous amount of flexibility and strategy in what are, essentially, pretty simple rules.

Reversing the cavalry vs. infantry firing order would render cavalry impotent, even if you give them another dice. As it is, refusing to form square is usually an invitation to disaster. If the infantry doesn't form square, the cavalry unit fires first with 4 dice, on average. Each dice has a 33% chance of scoring an infantry hit, a 16% chance of a saber, and a 16% chance of a flag. That's a 50% chance of a hit, and a 66% chance of an adverse result of some kind. If a retreat is called for, not only does the infantry not get to return fire, but the cavalry can follow-up with a bonus attack. In my experience, infantry that refuses square usually wind up dead.

The artillery rules seem to work well as they are; to me anyway. You're thinking of reversing the melee firing order. Allowing artillery to fire first would almost guarantee that the infantry would be toast. Again, it's that 50% chance of a hit per die, coupled with the retreat flag. So, reversing the firing order will make the artillery even stronger.

The multiple units attacking thing is, I agree, a bit unrealistic on the face of things. After some consideration, though, I think it works. You said that the defending unit would be in no shape to receive a second attack. True enough, but these events are supposedly all happening simultaneously. So the two attacks really represent attacks on different parts of the same unit... right and left flanks or some such. The second attack is going to occur after the results of the first attack have been implemented, so it's unlikely the defender is still going to be intact and will be at reduced strength for the second attack.

Anyway, as I said, I'd give the standard rules a few more games. In the end, though, it's your game and the important point is to have fun!

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Freddy Dekker
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Thanks Thom,

good points.


I admit I hadn't done the maths, or chance calculation, and as you explain it, it doesn't seem so unrealistic.

Today more fun with scenario two, sofar I've still managed a victory with my French allthough not in a way that there is no longer any exitment.
All these battles could have gone easily either way.

Next scenario which by the looks of it is a big battle, but I've just found I'm missing a HC unit and now I'm frantically searching the room for spare block and sticker.

Trust me to have stored it away too wel...soblue


 
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Padraic Kirby
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Crown Point
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Key here is there are twice as many infantry casualty faces on the die than there are cavalry casualty faces. 2 vs 1. Infantry will fall faster if not in square.
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Mark McG
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sagitar wrote:
Many years ago I bought this game called memoir.


reasonably off topic, but I'm going for it anyway.

Memoir has no battle back that I'm aware of, and given the far higher firepower of the WW2 era, it always seemed to me that the defender should battle first in Memoir.

So I'd dust of Memoir and test it there first. My view is that C&C Napoleonics is pretty finely balanced in the mechanics, whereas Memoir (and BattleCry) need to be brought up to current standards.



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sagitar wrote:
Thanks Thom,

good points.


I admit I hadn't done the maths, or chance calculation, and as you explain it, it doesn't seem so unrealistic.

Today more fun with scenario two, sofar I've still managed a victory with my French allthough not in a way that there is no longer any exitment.
All these battles could have gone easily either way.

Next scenario which by the looks of it is a big battle, but I've just found I'm missing a HC unit and now I'm frantically searching the room for spare block and sticker.

Trust me to have stored it away too wel...soblue




Three things, Sagitar,

1. Remember that Cavalry will battle first against an Infantry unit that chooses not to form square. The Infantry will suffer casualties and possibly be forced to retreat before they get the chance to battle back at all. You calculate battle back dice for the Infantry after they take their casualties from the Cavalry. (This is true for all units in all Melee situations except for First Strike and, of course, Melee with infantry in square.)

2. Remember that in rolling the dice, you are hitting based on the target type, not the firing type. Infantry rolling against Cavalry in Melee are looking for Cavalry, Sword, and Flag symbols to inflict on the Cavalry, for example.

3. You may not be missing any cavalry blocks. French Cavalry units have four blocks in their formations. British and Portuguese only have three. If you're building your Brits and Portos with four blocks, you give them too much credit!

If you understood these points before posting your OP, then never mind and game on!
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Freddy Dekker
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No problem,it is good to see that the game gas sort of considered what I thought it had not and..
No checked and checked and definatly missing one.


As for memoir

I think the battle back thing is reakky one of this games strong points.
In memoir we got fed up with needing an action in one sector and not getting the cards.

I ran into that situation with this game
All those centre cards while I neede them n the left.... AAAAAAAARGH.
but than, allthough it was not ideal, I noticed it was not as disabeling as expected as battle back menas I was not totaly defenseless.
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Michal
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You will get into this situation pretty often, when you need card on one section, all you get/have is to the other section...
Well, it works in similar fashion for your opponent too. You take all right and opponent has all left cards, so both are looking for 1 card :-)
/Sadly, sometimes it is not true /
After all, it is a "feature" of the game, not a bug

 
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Freddy Dekker
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I know and it was a feature which seriously started to annoy us in memoir.

But than memoir doesn't have the battle back, so you can still respond to melee.
In memoir you only could sit back and watch things happen.

Besides it almost seems like the game has a significant number of neutral cards which, failing the presence of certain units, allow you to simply pick one, which than would allow you to pick one on the sector for which you are lacking the cards.

During our last game I wondered about a few things.

Flags: was I right in understanding that you MAY ignore a flag but do not HAVE to?
There was a situation in which infantry with an officer was in a bit of a tricky situation, too many enemies around, and the result of an attack was 1 flag.

Now I interpretid the rules as "You MAY ignore" and as it was a "get out of Dodge fast" situation, I chose to take the flag and retreat.
So used what should be a negative result to my benefit.

Also wondered, think I read about it but can't find it right now.
Can you voluntarily move off map without a penalty? or does this only apply to officers.
I could imagine that if you have 1 troop units, you might want to remove them to avoid allowing the enemies VP.
On the other hand, this would seem like cheating cause if you withdraw enough, your oponnent will be left with a lack of kills to win.



 
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Kris Van Beurden
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Flag: yes, ignoring is optional.

Retreat off the board: only for leaders. Units can't voluntarily move off-map (except in a couple of scenarios as described in the scenario rules)
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Ah pleased to see I got that right.

And the off map rule seems logical. Good I decided to look first before I did it wrong.

I reckon it's due to inexperience but we seem to forget something every game. But it's not really important cause if you play it wrong, you'll do so for both sides.
And as longs as we will have fun, who cares.

Next game my oponents will have the benefit of a rifle unit while I'll be enjoying the presence of grenadiers.
The stats do not seem to impressive for the latter as apparenlty they only get to ignore a flag, while I would have liked a bit of extra fire power, but I just noticed they can be very usefull in melee, so better move in fast.
 
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Kris Van Beurden
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Well, the Rifle unit has only 3 blocks, which already reduces its firepower and makes it easier to be killed. It also doesn't hit on sabres in melee. Also, your grenadiers have a +1 in melee always (as opposed to the normal french line which only gets the +1 in melee versus infantry). A very good unit (whereas rifle infantry is generally a free banner to a determined opponent - worse than an artillery unit at very long range (as it can't fire), slightly better at medium range and worse in melee).
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Really? Somehow I'd expected rifle units to have bonus fire power.
 
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Kris Van Beurden
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Rifle infantry fires at # of blocks + 1
French line infantry fires at #of blocks

However, due to the fact that RI has 3 blocks and FLI has 4 blocks, their maximum firepower is equal. The range of the RI is one higher, which makes them more interesting (also, at full blocks they fire for 3 after having moved, whereas the line infantry would only fire for 2 after moving, another bonus).

 
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Uwe Heilmann
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sagitar wrote:
Really? Somehow I'd expected rifle units to have bonus fire power.


Yes, they have!
They fire at longer ranges than regular infantry units.
Properly used, this advantage can break the enemy lines.


Cheers
U.L.H.

 
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Freddy Dekker
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Thanks guys, I seemed to recall there was a range advantage.

Good news as I managed to find my spare game items, logically not where I'd put all the other surplus games stuff, so it took some doing.

So new block, spare stickers and I'm ready to crush some allies.
What bugs me is the fact that I must now assume I'd overlooked that block. How could that happen.shake Ahwell problem solved.

The board is set up, in a few minutes I'll jump on my bike, no doubt get rained upon and pick up my youngest from school.
There'll be a short tea break, a shifting of furniture and than let loose the hounds of war, cry havoc and all that.

Especially my youngest has now taken acception to my beating them in the first few games, but I've explained that as long as we have fun we are all winners.

Looking forward to seeing what the new units (rifle/guards/French heavies)can do.
 
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Thom Brennan
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I think the trick with the Rifles is to keep them at a range of 3, otherwise they are in danger of getting blown away rather quickly. With only 3 blocks, one lucky roll of the dice by the French will remove them from the board. My rifles always seem to have a distressingly short life expectancy.
 
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Kris Van Beurden
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three range is still in bayonet charge/forced march death zone
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Yes it is and I made good use of that card and the rifles was one of the units toget wiped out.

Enemy artillery keeps posing a problem for me.
I'mnow going to try and see if cavalry may be the way to get rid of it.
 
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Mark McG
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sagitar wrote:

Enemy artillery keeps posing a problem for me.
I'mnow going to try and see if cavalry may be the way to get rid of it.


Try using cavalry combined with your artillery vs enemy artillery.
 
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tuner 13 wrote:
sagitar wrote:
Really? Somehow I'd expected rifle units to have bonus fire power.


Yes, they have!
They fire at longer ranges than regular infantry units.
Properly used, this advantage can break the enemy lines.


Cheers
U.L.H.



Agreed. A fresh unit of British Rifle Lights can stand and roll four dice out to three hexes. If they move just 1 hex, they can still roll 3 dice. Move them 1 hex into Woods and they can still roll 3 dice out 3 hexes.

Even Foot Artillery ain't that good without some help! BRLs are the bee's knees!

Hitting them with Cavalry to drive them into square is the best you can do until you can bring up some other infantry to close with them. Pounding them with artillery at every chance helps, too. Even one block loss can take away a lot of their sting.
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