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Subject: People need to stop playing the Borg wrong rss

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Xander Fulton
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It's frustrating trying to argue balance around the Borg when seeing posts along the lines of 'well *I* just beat this [terrible Borg list] that was flown by one of our best players [clearly not adapting his tactics for the Borg - thus making horrible decisions], so obviously they aren't a problem'.

Faction pure? This is the list you want:

Quote:
Borg Sphere 4270 (40)
Tactical Drone (3)
Resource: Flagship Independent (Klingon) (10)
Seven of Nine (4)

Borg Sphere (38)
Tactical Drone (3)

Total Build SP: 98


Both ships scan - always scan. Named sphere can periodically target lock (to save Borg token re-rolls) or re-enable Seven (if you've spent a few down), as it gets scan for free.

Playing with terrain? Constantly jump from corner-to-corner around the planet to make the enemy come around it piecemeal (or separate their forces), concentrate fire on their most powerful ship you have a shot on, done. If the enemy brought fighters, have your named sphere toss a couple of dice at them a turn alongside attacking the main enemy ship.

Playing without terrain? Use your grid-like movement to move rapidly down the map edges, switching direction as needed to force enemy movement choices that keep them at longer range or have them periodically turn away or risk flying off the map.

Mixed faction? Use this list:

Quote:
Borg Sphere 4270 (40)
Gul Dukat (6)
Resource: Flagship Independent (Klingon) (10)
Breen Aide (3)

Borg Sphere (38)
Tactical Drone (3)

Total Build SP: 100


Flagship gets free scan, takes Dukat's free BS token, ship action of 'target lock'. Other ship just scans.

Tactics as above.

-------

You'll almost never use regenerate, unless either of:

A) You've got a really brutal crit that is ruining your game and you NEED to have go away.

B) The enemy has plainly turned significantly away and cannot get in range to attack you this turn.
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Eric Little
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XanderF wrote:
It's frustrating trying to argue balance around the Borg when seeing posts along the lines of 'well *I* just beat this [terrible Borg list] that was flown by one of our best players [clearly not adapting his tactics for the Borg - thus making horrible decisions], so obviously they aren't a problem'.

Faction pure? This is the list you want:

Quote:
Borg Sphere 4270 (40)
Tactical Drone (3)
Resource: Flagship Independent (Klingon) (10)
Seven of Nine (4)

Borg Sphere (38)
Tactical Drone (3)

Total Build SP: 98


Both ships scan - always scan. Named sphere can periodically target lock (to save Borg token re-rolls) or re-enable Seven (if you've spent a few down), as it gets scan for free.

Playing with terrain? Constantly jump from corner-to-corner around the planet to make the enemy come around it piecemeal (or separate their forces), concentrate fire on their most powerful ship you have a shot on, done. If the enemy brought fighters, have your named sphere toss a couple of dice at them a turn alongside attacking the main enemy ship.

Playing without terrain? Use your grid-like movement to move rapidly down the map edges, switching direction as needed to force enemy movement choices that keep them at longer range or have them periodically turn away or risk flying off the map.

Mixed faction? Use this list:

Quote:
Borg Sphere 4270 (40)
Gul Dukat (6)
Resource: Flagship Independent (Klingon) (10)
Breen Aide (3)

Borg Sphere (38)
Tactical Drone (3)

Total Build SP: 100


Flagship gets free scan, takes Dukat's free BS token, ship action of 'target lock'. Other ship just scans.

Tactics as above.

-------

You'll almost never use regenerate, unless either of:

A) You've got a really brutal crit that is ruining your game and you NEED to have go away.

B) The enemy has plainly turned significantly away and cannot get in range to attack you this turn.


While I like the idea of riding the edge of the board to force awkward maneuvering on their part, it also makes your Borg spheres easier to hit. You'll be able to maneuver out of that 90 degree arc at range 1 a lot easier than at range 3.
 
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Xander Fulton
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ejlittle wrote:
While I like the idea of riding the edge of the board to force awkward maneuvering on their part, it also makes your Borg spheres easier to hit. You'll be able to maneuver out of that 90 degree arc at range 1 a lot easier than at range 3.


It's easier in practice than you'd think - set up a ship on the board edge, and set up another facing straight at the edge of the board at range 3. You'll note that the ship ON the board edge can go forward-4, and be outside of range 3 of the ship inside the board. If it goes forward straight-1, you'll be JUST inside it's FA arc (by a hair), but if it goes forward straight-2, you'll be outside of its arc entirely.

Either way, it's going to have to start banking, now, if it wants to keep you in arc, so...at that point, you just turn around and fly past him the other way. Or you could always bluff that at any point. Against the Galaxy-class and Cardassians, in particularly, edge-of-map games can really mess with their ability to get shots on you.

And finally, of course, the Borg provide the ability for the player to just be an ass about it. IE., park in the corner. Maneuver? - go forward 2. Next turn - back 2. Next turn - forward 2...or maybe 2 down the other leg. Next turn...2 back. Etc, et al. Mix up the axis you are moving down now and then, sometimes distance-2, sometimes distance-1...heck, you can even go '3' left-and-right...just stick yourself in the corner and make the enemy come to you (flying themselves into the corner and hoping to destroy both your ships and instantly end the match before they go sailing off the edge).
 
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Justin Hare
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If you are going to bother pulling the cross faction build, why not embrace that same mentality that has worked for so long? Jam Picard on it.

40 Sphere 4270
6 Dukat
3 Boheeka
49

38 Sphere
7 Picard
45

5 EAD

Your tactics are sound. Your fleet build has advantages and disadvantages compared to mine. I shoot earlier. You don't need to worry about not getting rerolls on your initial pass against cloaked ships. You get that extra scan action. We both maintain that nice blank-to-hit mechanic. My fleet will get slightly better crit hunting and chances at the double damage side. You gain that +1 attack at range 2-3 from the flag, which isn't as useful for Borg, since hugging the enemy ships works better than keeping the range open for the borg (that I've seen, anyway).
 
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Xander Fulton
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Church14 wrote:
If you are going to bother pulling the cross faction build, why not embrace that same mentality that has worked for so long? Jam Picard on it.


Because the Borg don't want to move/action first - it risks one of the few things that can hurt them (in a cross-faction environment, anyway)...losing actions. And in any case, they don't need it - they don't need to see what the enemy's actions would be, as it makes no difference to what THEY are going to be doing.

Far better to save the points and take lower-skilled captains...if there was a cheaper option to get a free BS than Dukat, that'd be an even better choice! FWIW, that's one of the reasons you could make a good case for:

Quote:
Borg Sphere 4270 (40)
Worf (4)
Resource: Flagship Independent (Klingon) (10)
Drex (5)

Borg Sphere (38)
Tactical Drone (3)

Total Build SP: 100


...with the named sphere doing the free-scan thing, and ship action of 'Drex'. Worf gives you re-rolls of blanks, Drex converts BS results to hits or crits...it's a good combo, too, but I find Dukat/Boheeka seems to work better (re-rolling blanks is well and good, but a direct blank->hit conversion is more reliable).

This one does have the advantage of even lower captain skill, though, so...that's nice...

Church14 wrote:
...since hugging the enemy ships works better than keeping the range open for the borg (that I've seen, anyway).


Initially (IE., before your enemy adapts to Borg fleets), that may be true. The best ability the alpha sector has to deal with them is via swarms, though. When your two spheres are facing 5 D7s, closing to range 1 may be +2 dice to your fleet...but it's +5 dice to their fleet.

Borg want to keep the range open.
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Eric B.
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As good as Flagships are, I do think that the Borg get more mileage out of an Assimilation Tubules instead of the Flagship, ideally on a generic PS1 Borg Captain. Being able to break almost any combo you come into contact with can really swing a game, and nothing frustrates an opponent quite like effortlessly disrupting/destroying some key aspect of their list.
 
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O B
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I wouldn't bother with anything but the drones... that reroll is brutal!
 
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Xander Fulton
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adorablerocket wrote:
I wouldn't bother with anything but the drones... that reroll is brutal!


Without BS conversions, you only get 50/50 good vs bad results on any roll...so an initial roll of 50/50, then a reroll of the bad 50% for another 50/50...means you end at 75% good vs 25% bad results.

With BS conversions, you get 75% good vs 25% bad on the FIRST throw - no reroll (or spending drone tokens) needed.

So, yeah, reroll IS effective...but if you can get BS conversions (or, even better, BS conversions plus direct blank->hit conversions) at no permanent cost, that's a far better option. Not due to the result (BS vs re-roll-with-no-BS is basically identical), but because it costs nothing to do. You've only got so many drone tokens, after all.

(Now, seriously, I'm not knocking this - it's a POWERFUL ability, no doubt, and doubly nice that it doesn't take an action to trigger..nevermind how cheap it is. But mixed-faction fleets do usually have better choices overall...)
 
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Matthew Ting
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XanderF wrote:

And finally, of course, the Borg provide the ability for the player to just be an ass about it. IE., park in the corner. Maneuver? - go forward 2. Next turn - back 2. Next turn - forward 2...or maybe 2 down the other leg. Next turn...2 back. Etc, et al. Mix up the axis you are moving down now and then, sometimes distance-2, sometimes distance-1...heck, you can even go '3' left-and-right...just stick yourself in the corner and make the enemy come to you (flying themselves into the corner and hoping to destroy both your ships and instantly end the match before they go sailing off the edge).


You can do the same thing with a Galaxy or a D'deridex. If I face your 98pt Borg list with my 100pt Federation list with reverse maneuvers, I can just keep my fleet in "park" and force you to come to me or else it's a win on fleet points. It'd be the worst game ever but it's legal.

If you really want to play Borg like that you'll want your list to be 100pts.
 
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Xander Fulton
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wedge772 wrote:
XanderF wrote:

And finally, of course, the Borg provide the ability for the player to just be an ass about it. IE., park in the corner. Maneuver? - go forward 2. Next turn - back 2. Next turn - forward 2...or maybe 2 down the other leg. Next turn...2 back. Etc, et al. Mix up the axis you are moving down now and then, sometimes distance-2, sometimes distance-1...heck, you can even go '3' left-and-right...just stick yourself in the corner and make the enemy come to you (flying themselves into the corner and hoping to destroy both your ships and instantly end the match before they go sailing off the edge).


You can do the same thing with a Galaxy or a D'deridex. If I face your 98pt Borg list with my 100pt Federation list with reverse maneuvers, I can just keep my fleet in "park" and force you to come to me or else it's a win on fleet points. It'd be the worst game ever but it's legal.

If you really want to play Borg like that you'll want your list to be 100pts.


Both the Galaxy and D'deridex (and Nebula) can do it to some extent, but they can only move forward and backward along one axis, and have 90 degree arcs (so they can be flanked by moving directly down the relevant board edge). The Borg can't be - 360 arcs, and can move up or down either axis from the corner. Additionally, the Galaxy/Nebula/etc lose their action when moving in reverse, so you simply time your approach to 'enter range' on their backwards movement (so they can willingly go backwards, and lose their action, or move some other direction to leave their corner). Borg don't have to lose an action for them to do this.

Yes, it would make for a ludicrously boring match. Isn't that the name of the game with the Borg?
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Aaron Percival
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adorablerocket wrote:
I wouldn't bother with anything but the drones... that reroll is brutal!


Haha tell that to my first ever roll with a Borg ship. 8 dice...no hits. Spent a token to reroll...1 hit. Was a very frustrating game with my rolls.
 
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charles skrobis
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And here's how you counter both those builds hard, in faction pure, because they're laughable.

Enterprise-D 28
Federation Flagship 10
Kirk 6
Cheat Death 3
Cheat Death 3
Cheat Death 3
Mile Obrien 2

Total 55

Voyager 30
Piccard 6
Cheat Death 5
Checkov 3

Total 44

Fleet 99

So on Approach to the Borg, just take it nice and slow to maitain forwards arc with the enterprise-D, and Target lock with a Battle Stations every turn. With forwards arcs you should do 8-9 damage assuming you don't roll terrible, to a ship with 13 health, or a ship with 15 Health. Next round it they move out of arc, they're likely still at range 1 to do so, and your 360 still keep you at 9 dice with a battle stations and target lock, kiting just helps you maintain the forwards arc, and the last is them failing to pass you and taking 11 dice from range 1. Either focus fire the same sphere, and it's dead before it even gets to shot that turn.

Now, since the first sphere goes down on the second round of combat, you can likely expect them to have both taken a shot, probably at Voyager for the least potential cheat deaths, but first round just takes it's shields and hull to pop the cheat death, because no single sphere there can do 9 damage to me in 1 attack, so both will be needed to take 1 cheat death, and their sphere will fall before Voyager.

Their last sphere will destroy Voyager there, but now I have an untouched Enterprise-D with 11 health and 3 cheat deaths. If it's the drone sphere, the re-roll will make it average 4.5 damage per attack, and it will take 3 attacks to activate the first cheat death, and therefore 6 attacks in all to destroy it. The named one with Dukat will have an easier time, and probably do it in 5. In 5 rounds with a 360 firing arc and shooting first, you can do 15 damage at range 2 in your rear. This is disregarding the opportunities to get them back in your front arc for 5 damage, or range 1 for the extra die in any direction, or both.

Lastly, Miles O'brien, because now you're ready to also take on other nonsense that isn't the borg. This is literally a maneuvering battle, and the federation can make turn maneuvers to areas the borg can't go, guaranteeing actions. I'd say I've had great success with this so far, and haven't seen much if anything in the way of Borg or other that can stop this.

Have fun with the federation, cause I haven't even brought up how Klingons landing a projectedd stasis field can remove any 1 of those spheres from the board without it firing ever. Same with Dominion Energy Dissipators or swarmed phased polarons. Though the real variants come from Romulan attack mitigations of Interphase Generators and Varel, because they can out take the Borg, and firing from there isn't too bad.
 
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Xander Fulton
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charles_skrobis wrote:
...because no single sphere there can do 9 damage to me in 1 attack, so both will be needed to take 1 cheat death, and their sphere will fall before Voyager.


You realize the named sphere can split its fire, right? With the (generic) re-rolls and Dukat-BS or Boheeka conversions, the two spheres will get about 11 'good' results a turn (both are throwing 7 dice, you'll recall, due to the Klingon flagship). Given they are also both using 'scan', Voyager rolls only a single defense dice (2 at range 3), so usually blocks only 1 result across both attacks. IE., it dies turn 1 it enters range, then dies again (to some fire split off from the named sphere - only takes a single point to kill it after Cheat Death) the next turn.

charles_skrobis wrote:
In 5 rounds with a 360 firing arc and shooting first, you can do 15 damage at range 2 in your rear. This is disregarding the opportunities to get them back in your front arc for 5 damage, or range 1 for the extra die in any direction, or both.


Your math is off. With a base 7 attack, it is 8 at range 1 - expected results are 1 crit, 3 hits, 2 BS, 2 blank. Dukat converts the BS to hits, Boheeka converts a blank to a hit - IE., 7 dice hitting out of 8 is typical for that sphere.
 
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charles skrobis
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XanderF wrote:
charles_skrobis wrote:
...because no single sphere there can do 9 damage to me in 1 attack, so both will be needed to take 1 cheat death, and their sphere will fall before Voyager.


You realize the named sphere can split its fire, right? With the (generic) re-rolls and Dukat-BS or Boheeka conversions, the two spheres will get about 11 'good' results a turn (both are throwing 7 dice, you'll recall, due to the Klingon flagship). Given they are also both using 'scan', Voyager rolls only a single defense dice (2 at range 3), so usually blocks only 1 result across both attacks. IE., it dies turn 1 it enters range, then dies again (to some fire split off from the named sphere - only takes a single point to kill it after Cheat Death) the next turn.

charles_skrobis wrote:
In 5 rounds with a 360 firing arc and shooting first, you can do 15 damage at range 2 in your rear. This is disregarding the opportunities to get them back in your front arc for 5 damage, or range 1 for the extra die in any direction, or both.


Your math is off. With a base 7 attack, it is 8 at range 1 - expected results are 1 crit, 3 hits, 2 BS, 2 blank. Dukat converts the BS to hits, Boheeka converts a blank to a hit - IE., 7 dice hitting out of 8 is typical for that sphere.


The problem here, is that Dukat is on the ship that I'd target first, so split fire doesn't mean anything when to cheat death, when the 1 ship with it can't stay on the board because of the damage I can throw at them.

And if you want to talk range 1 in the enterprise-D 360 arc for even 4 turns, I can still ramp out 16 dice. Which from my understanding average rolls with a battle stations and a target lock for 16 dice is when the first real blank shows up, so I avergae 15 damage, and likely only need to deal with the 13 health generic sphere anyways. Though If you like, the build has an extra point, and I can swap out Obrien for Boheeka, and make the damage perfect. Regardless, the spheres do in fact loss to this, with the only exception being in the maneuvering game.
 
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