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Subject: Puzzle: Max Weyland Credits rss

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Captain Frisk
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Compliments of the Blue Sun thread:

What is the theoretical maximum # of credits that one can obtain as Weyland before the game ends?

Rules:

The runner is a scared Ian stirling who will never run (No infinite cell portal crap folks). He's just going to set up some crazy resource based economy engine and click for credits.

You may use the blue sun identity, but no other cards after Honor and Profit.

You must respect your influence limits.

You may assume perfect shuffle luck.

You may not use Corporate Shuffle. (See below for Research Station loop)

You may not use Rework (Unconfirmed but highly likely that there is an infinite rework loop)

To save you some time:

According to netrunner db - if you put every legal agenda in your deck, you would have 87 points, which by my calculations involves a 214 card deck. If you add every neutral and weyland card to your deck, you have 222 cards, so you can actually build a deck that large.

Disclaimer: I do not actually know the answer. I have some suspicions as to what I expect the solution to look like (and thus a range of expected values), but my guess is that someone will find something unexpected and blow my expected solution out of the water.

I don't think its possible to go "infinite" here with running disallowed, but I've been wrong before.
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Nushura
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Errr...infinite with corporate shuffle?

Pick any identity you want, add any 45 legal cards plus corporate shuffle. Durng 45 turns click for credits then play CS. Rinse and repeat
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Captain Frisk
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Nushura wrote:
Errr...infinite with corporate shuffle?

Pick any identity you want, add any 45 legal cards plus corporate shuffle. Durng 45 turns click for credits then play CS. Rinse and repeat


Corporate shuffle doesn't put archives back in R&D. You have a finite # of turns - unless there's a rework - reclamation - archived memories loop, but I don't think that actually works.
 
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Basic Loop

Initial Hand:
Janus
Oversight AI
Reclamation Order
Archived Memories
Archived Memories

Turn 1 (mandatory draw: Hedge Fund)
Install: Janus
Play Hedge Fund [+5]
Play: Oversight AI [-1]


Turn 2: Begin -> Blue Sun [+15] (mandatory draw: Archived Memories)
Archived Memories -> Oversight
Install Janus
Oversight AI [-1]

Turn 3: Begin -> Blue Sun [+15]
Archived Memories: Oversight
Install Janus
Oversight AI [-1]

Turn 4: Begin -> Blue Sun [+15]
Archived Memories: Oversight
Install Janus
Oversight AI [-1]

Turn 5: Blue Sun [+15] (Refresh turn)
Reclamation Order (Archived Memories) [-1]
Archived memories (Reclamation Order)

Hand: Janus, Reclamation Order, Archived Memories, Archived Memories
Discard: Archived Memories, Oversight AI

Forward: Repeat from turn 3 less a +15. Loop is worth +30 going forward, with -3 for 2x overight & 1x reclamation order.

First pass is +41 credits. Each iteration of the loop is +27 net.

(t-5)\3 + {t>=5 ? 1 : 0 } = L where t is the number of turns you've taken L is the number of "loops" you've completed. (\ is integer division, where you drop decimals)

$ = (41 * ceiling[L/L+1]) + 27(L-1)


So, basically, 14 turns in:

41 + 27(3) = 122 credits.

Every 3 turns after that, add 27. If 222 cards is the right number, then :

41 + 27(72) = 1985 credits

Total influence: Janus (3i), Archived Memories (6i), Reclamation Order (2i) = 11i

Update: Note 3 jackson's as extra influence would give us an extra loop: 1985 + 27 = $2012

If we wait to draw archived memories, we can eek out a +5 from a restructure from both ends of the loop, probably and get extra credits from the extra turns... probably about 2030 at point. not going to completely map that out.
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Hmmmm well let's see.....you get the most turns out of the biggest deck, so let's include all the agendas. That's 87 agenda points which is good for a deck of up to 214 cards (48 of which are the agendas, so that's 166 cards left over).

Weyland and Neutral have 60 non-agenda cards (up to and including H&P) so we could include 3 copies of each to make the 166 easily. So we don't have to worry about being unable to build the deck.

Let's make 3 of them JH so we can recur the whole thing thrice. So we'll have 4 go-arounds of 214, 213, 212, and 211 cards respectively. That's 850 draws, but you blow 6 of them on your first turn so I think that's 844 turns.

So at the very worst I think you could click 844 times for 1 credit and finish with 849 credits.


Lawl.
 
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Hah I didn't see you'd already done the math on the deck size. Can you be ninja'ed by the OP you didn't read? Hmmm.... ninja
 
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DrTall wrote:
Hmmmm well let's see.....you get the most turns out of the biggest deck, so let's include all the agendas. That's 87 agenda points which is good for a deck of up to 214 cards (48 of which are the agendas, so that's 166 cards left over).

Weyland and Neutral have 60 non-agenda cards (up to and including H&P) so we could include 3 copies of each to make the 166 easily. So we don't have to worry about being unable to build the deck.

Let's make 3 of them JH so we can recur the whole thing thrice. So we'll have 4 go-arounds of 214, 213, 212, and 211 cards respectively. That's 850 draws, but you blow 6 of them on your first turn so I think that's 844 turns.

So at the very worst I think you could click 844 times for 1 credit and finish with 849 credits.


If your first influence splash is Director Haas and you start by installing and then rezzing then add a bunch of credits to that.

You can do some simple things to make this better as a baseline: Directory Haas + Melange is +8 a turn. That's just under a blue sun in the 1760-1780 range for a 222 card deck. Assuming you play operations for money on that extra click here and there, you might actually be able to match a blue sun loop.
 
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Zak Jarvis
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DrTall wrote:
Let's make 3 of them JH so we can recur the whole thing thrice. So we'll have 4 go-arounds of 214, 213, 212, and 211 cards respectively. That's 850 draws, but you blow 6 of them on your first turn so I think that's 844 turns.


What are you on about?

Is Jackson Howard's ability "trash to return your entire Archives into R&D" now?
 
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Scott Forster
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DrTall wrote:

Let's make 3 of them JH so we can recur the whole thing thrice. So we'll have 4 go-arounds of 214, 213, 212, and 211 cards respectively. That's 850 draws, but you blow 6 of them on your first turn so I think that's 844 turns.


Jackson's only getting you 3 cards back, not 214
 
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Hahahah wow. Jackson Howard != Levy AR Lab Access. Is there an emoticon for rolling around laughing?
 
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Captain Frisk
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
Nushura wrote:
Errr...infinite with corporate shuffle?

Pick any identity you want, add any 45 legal cards plus corporate shuffle. Durng 45 turns click for credits then play CS. Rinse and repeat


Corporate shuffle doesn't put archives back in R&D. You have a finite # of turns - unless there's a rework - reclamation - archived memories loop, but I don't think that actually works.


I think this will work in cerebral imaging.

I also think that with some number of Research Station + Corporate Shuffle you can pull it off + drip economy you can pull it off.

Congrats Nushura - you have gotten Corporate Shuffle banned!
 
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Captain Frisk
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gumOnShoe wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
You can do some simple things to make this better as a baseline: Directory Haas + Melange is +8 a turn. That's just under a blue sun in the 1760-1780 range for a 222 card deck. Assuming you play operations for money on that extra click here and there, you might actually be able to match a blue sun loop.


You can do alot better than that:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

3x Pad Campaign
3x Sundew
3x Server Diagnostics
1x D. Haas
1x Melange
1x Subliminal
1x Click / turn should put you at $24 / turn for nearly 5k.

My current solution is about 10% better than that.



Spoiler tags people!

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Zak Jarvis
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I don't know what the answer is, but if you're not including 'Sundew', 'PAD Campaign' and 'Mental Health Clinic' you're probably on the wrong track. Over that many turns, each 'Sundew' will net you 800-odd credits for one click. Likewise 'Server Diagnostics', but then you can't install ICE. You might possibly want a singleton 'Alix T4LB07', depending on what else happens.

However much recursion you have, I don't think single "bursts" are going to do a better average than 800 credits!

And once you've exhausting your recurring credit cards and get down to the single click efficiency, you've got 'GRNDL Refinery' at 4 credits per click as a benchmark.

Let's say you have 214 turns:
3 x Sundew = 3 * 213 * 2 = 1278
3 x Server Diagnostics = 3 * 212 * 2 = 1272
3 x PAD Campaign = 3 * 211 * 1 = 633
3 x Mental Health Clinic = 3 * 210 * 1 = 630
Then advance GRNDL Refinery for the rest of the game:
(209 * 3) - 2 = 625 clicks left (one click to install, one to cash in)
625 * 4 = 2500
Installation credits = 6 + 9 + 6 = 21
Total credits = 6292 credits

Now, that's not quite right because you can't afford to rez all the Sundews turn one, but you could add some recursion to string the game out longer, so I reckon you want to be looking at certainly more than 6,300 credits.

Edit: D'oh, I'm an idiot. I forgot the GRNDL advancement credits. But pop in 'Simone Diego' and it's got an efficiency of just about 3 and 2/3 credits per click at least.
 
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Kaiwen Zhang
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I think with rework and reclamation orders it's possible to stall the game undefinitely. then add a directory haas or pad or something to gain 1c minimum per turn = infinite.
 
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Captain Frisk
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johncraven wrote:
I think with rework and reclamation orders it's possible to stall the game undefinitely. then add a directory haas or pad or something to gain 1c minimum per turn = infinite.


I think you may be correct - can you post the loop? It seems to be 15 clicks to play your "target" operation 6 times. With D. Haas it looks like you could conceiveably play rework 6 times in 4 turns, which is just enough to keep shoving whatever card you draw back into R&D.
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
johncraven wrote:
I think with rework and reclamation orders it's possible to stall the game undefinitely. then add a directory haas or pad or something to gain 1c minimum per turn = infinite.


I think you may be correct - can you post the loop? It seems to be 15 clicks to play your "target" operation 6 times. With D. Haas it looks like you could conceiveably play rework 6 times in 4 turns, which is just enough to keep shoving whatever card you draw back into R&D.


The loop is multi-turn, but with Director Haas, you can:

Turn 1:
Cash in Curtain Wall
Draw
Reclamation Order 3xRework
Rework
Install Curtain Wall

Turn 2:
Draw
OAI Curtain Wall
Rework
Reclamation Order 2x Reclamation Order

Turn 3:
Draw
Rework
Reclamation Order 3x OAI
Click for a Credit

Drawing 3 cards and shuffling 3 into R&D. I think you can keep this up indefinitely.

Edit: I'm close but don't have time to get this right ATM. I need to recur RO again.
 
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Captain Frisk
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etherial wrote:
Captain_Frisk wrote:
johncraven wrote:
I think with rework and reclamation orders it's possible to stall the game undefinitely. then add a directory haas or pad or something to gain 1c minimum per turn = infinite.


I think you may be correct - can you post the loop? It seems to be 15 clicks to play your "target" operation 6 times. With D. Haas it looks like you could conceiveably play rework 6 times in 4 turns, which is just enough to keep shoving whatever card you draw back into R&D.


The loop is multi-turn, but with Director Haas, you can:

Turn 1:
Cash in Curtain Wall
Draw
Reclamation Order 2xRework
Rework
Install Curtain Wall

Turn 2:
Draw
OAI Curtain Wall
Rework
Reclamation Order 2x Reclamation Order

Drawing 2 cards and shuffling 2 into R&D. I think you can keep this up indefinitely.


Reclamation order can not target itself unfortunately. You can still get a loop with archived memories. (Use all of your archived memories on your reclmation orders. Use one of your reclamation orders on archived memories, use the other 2 on your target operation (in this case rework).
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
etherial wrote:
Captain_Frisk wrote:
johncraven wrote:
I think with rework and reclamation orders it's possible to stall the game undefinitely. then add a directory haas or pad or something to gain 1c minimum per turn = infinite.


I think you may be correct - can you post the loop? It seems to be 15 clicks to play your "target" operation 6 times. With D. Haas it looks like you could conceiveably play rework 6 times in 4 turns, which is just enough to keep shoving whatever card you draw back into R&D.


The loop is multi-turn, but with Director Haas, you can:

Turn 1:
Cash in Curtain Wall
Draw
Reclamation Order 2xRework
Rework
Install Curtain Wall

Turn 2:
Draw
OAI Curtain Wall
Rework
Reclamation Order 2x Reclamation Order

Drawing 2 cards and shuffling 2 into R&D. I think you can keep this up indefinitely.


Reclamation order can not target itself unfortunately. You can still get a loop with archived memories. (Use all of your archived memories on your reclmation orders. Use one of your reclamation orders on archived memories, use the other 2 on your target operation (in this case rework).


OK, I think I got it this time:

0:
Curtain Wall Installed and Rezzed via OAI
3x Rework in HQ
3x Archived Memories in HQ
2x Reclamation Order in Archives

Turn 1:
Cash in on Curtain Wall
Draw
Install Curtain Wall
Rework
Rework
Rework

Turn 2:
Draw
Archived Memories for Reclamation Order
Archived Memories for Reclamation Order
Archived Memories for OAI
OAI Curtain Wall

Turn 3:
Draw
Reclamation Order for 3x Rework
Reclamation Order for 3x Archived Memories
 
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Jumping to HB
Spoiler (click to reveal)

In play:
3x pad campaign
GRNDL Refinery in play
1 Director HAAS: 5 clicks
+ 3 scored mandatory upgrades: 8 Clicks

In hand:
3x archived memories
3x reclamation order
3x Rework
3x Other

rework 3x Other:

(5 clicks left)
Reclamation Order: rework [-1]

(3 clicks left)
Archived memories, Reclamation order

(2 clicks left)
If archived memories in hand: Advance grndl 2x's.
If Out of Archived memories: Reclaim all memories.

You can now pop for infinite at any point in the future. You simply rework 3x when your deck is empty because its possible to to fill your deck up with at least 3 cards in less than a single turn.
 
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Jonathan Jones
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I think Etherial uses to much influence.

Turn 1:
1. Rework
2. Rework
3. Rework

Turn 2:
1 & 2. Reclamation Order: Rework
3. Archived Memories: Reclamation Order

Turn 3:
1 & 2. Reclamation Order: Archived Memories
3. Archived Memories: Reclamation Order

Install some Research Stations prior to this loop to hold all the cards needed and a Pad-Campaign and you are set for all eternity with 11 influence spent.

And extra clicks in HB make this way too easy
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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gumOnShoe wrote:
Jumping to HB
Spoiler (click to reveal)

In play:
3x pad campaign
GRNDL Refinery in play
1 Director HAAS: 5 clicks
+ 3 scored mandatory upgrades: 8 Clicks

In hand:
3x archived memories
3x reclamation order
3x Rework
3x Other

rework 3x Other:

(5 clicks left)
Reclamation Order: rework [-1]

(3 clicks left)
Archived memories, Reclamation order

(2 clicks left)
If archived memories in hand: Advance grndl 2x's.
If Out of Archived memories: Reclaim all memories.

You can now pop for infinite at any point in the future. You simply rework 3x when your deck is empty because its possible to to fill your deck up with at least 3 cards in less than a single turn.


Corp starts with 3 Clicks.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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JonathanJones wrote:
I think Etherial uses to much influence.

Turn 1:
1. Rework
2. Rework
3. Rework

Turn 2:
1 & 2. Reclamation Order: Rework
3. Archived Memories: Reclamation Order

Turn 3:
1 & 2. Reclamation Order: Archived Memories
3. Archived Memories Reclamation Order

Install some Research Stations prior to this to hold all the cards needed and a Pad-Campaign and you are set for all eternity with 11 influence spent.

And extra clicks in HB make this way too easy


Argh, 18 Influence.
 
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Jon Bowker
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Infinite turns at +4c per cycle, except I missed the banning of Rework

Spoiler (click to reveal)
1x Director Haas *****
2x Reclamation Order ** **
2x Archived Memories ** **
2x Rework * *
3x Pad Campaign

Pads and Director Haas in play

Pad Money (+3c)
Draw
[clicks 1 & 2] Reclaim (-1c) 2x Rework to hand
[click 3] Rework something
[click 4] Rework something

Pad Money (+3c)
Draw
[click 1 & 2] Reclaim (-1c) 2x ArcMem to hand
[click 3] ArcMem for Reclaim
[click 4] ArcMem for Reclaim

Repeat . . .

If you are playing as HB, it opens up scoring 2x Mandatory upgrades, having 6 clicks per turn, which just means you can do more recursion shenanigans and opens influence for 3x Sundew.
 
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Captain Frisk
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proclaimed wrote:
Infinite turns at +4c per cycle, except I missed the banning of Rework


Yeah - While I think the infinite combos are interesting (I'm super happy that we've uncovered 2 game stalling combos today - especially the rework one), I figured that "infinite" isn't as interesting as a solution to the puzzle, although they clearly win.

Incidentally, i'm up to a solution that is on the order of 40K if my excel is correct.

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etherial wrote:
Corp starts with 3 Clicks.


There was an extra click in there, but you only really need 1 to advance grndl.
 
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