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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Phoenix's Global Ability rss

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Tom Hayes
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Global: Pay [1 Bolt] . Target character must attack.

After you opponent resolves his attack, can you use Phoenix's global to make one of his characters make another attack? Or does this need to be done when attackers were initially declared?
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Tim Ford
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If you do a quick search on Phoenix or Mr Fantastic there are probably 10 threads debating this.

I think the way to interpret the force to attack abilities is "target character controlled by the active player must attack in the declare attackers phase of the attack step this turn"

So you have to use it in the main step (before entering the attack step) because the only window you have to activate global effects in the attack step is phase 3 (use actions/globals) and at that point it's too late to go back and declare more attackers.

I think the idea that it spawns new attack steps at various points in the main phase or can make defending characters attack is adding a lot more complexity and takes a lot of assumptions on our part that aren't on the card.

If it forced a character to attack outside of the normal declare attackers phase in the attack step can you block it? There's nothing on Phoenix that indicates it creates an entire new attack step following all the rules of the attack step. Just that something has to attack - which I interpret to mean "the next available time it's normally allowed to attack this turn"

Other people disagree and you can see the back and forth in the other threads. I don't pretend to know exactly what Wizkids had in mind with these abilities, it's just how I interpret it from reading it and from other games that have had "force to attack" type abilities. None of them broke the whole turn structure to allow attacks out of regular turn sequence.

I would say you should pick a rule that you agree with in the short term and await the official FAQ to answer the question once and for all. Whenever it comes out. Just make sure you and your friends know the rule that you plan to use for it prior to it coming up mid game
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Jason Nopa
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Just for a counter argument (not that I'm saying the above interpretation is wrong), the following passage is also in the rulebook:

"During the attack step, the attacking player can use any actions still in the reserve pool. In addition, both players can use global abilities whenever appropriate; that is, they can use global abilities that react to damage and the like when that happens, and they can use other global abilities after blockers are declared."

The problem is that the above statement is vague, and everyone can interpret that phrasing differently. "Using global abilities to react to damage and the like when that happens" seems an odd thing to do at this particular step in most cases as damage is not assigned until after blockers have been declared. There exist a few exceptions, though. The part that bugs me is the "and the like", as that is not specific enough at all. So, yeah. Until we get an FAQ, I don't think the community can come to a consensus as to how this should be interpreted...
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Richard Taylor
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The rules have been written in a way that allows for contradictory abilities to be played. Some abilities are straight forward in their terms.

Example: Spend One Shield Energy to give one character +1 defence.

It can be used at any time but why would you do it in your turn knowing you are not going to attack and the defence is lost at the end of the turn.

The use of "and the like" is a way of avoiding writing in ALL the possible things that could be played at this point. Imagine how hard the rulebook would be to read if that happened.
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Tim Ford
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You can totally use force character to attack abilities outside of the main step action window.

By my interpretation, it just doesn't do anything useful. It has to attack in the next phase it's allowed to attack, there isn't one, nothing happens. Similar to giving something +1 defense when you don't plan to attack with it or block with it - go ahead. It doesn't matter but you can do it

The main difference I see is giving something +1D in the main step or attack step and then not using it is the ability isn't rearranging or creating entirely new phases within the turn structure. If they really want "force character to attack" abilities to make a big change to the phases they should say it on the card and they don't. I mean there's no other global that comes close to altering a turn structure in the way this one is being speculated about.

Since they don't I break it down to the simplest interpretation on forcing something to attack - the next time it's legally allowed to by the default turn structure.

I'm not guaranteeing I'm right. Just my way to play until they take away the ambiguity in a FAQ.
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Jason Nopa
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rhadamanthine wrote:
The use of "and the like" is a way of avoiding writing in ALL the possible things that could be played at this point. Imagine how hard the rulebook would be to read if that happened.


Yes, and I'm not saying that they should list every possible thing, because that's not feasible for a game that will continue to grow. I'm just saying that the absence of keywords hurts, in this case.

But this is to be expected. These kinds of things need to be smoothed out over time. I just hope it's sooner, rather than later.
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Richard Taylor
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rokkon wrote:
rhadamanthine wrote:
The use of "and the like" is a way of avoiding writing in ALL the possible things that could be played at this point. Imagine how hard the rulebook would be to read if that happened.


Yes, and I'm not saying that they should list every possible thing, because that's not feasible for a game that will continue to grow. I'm just saying that the absence of keywords hurts, in this case.

But this is to be expected. These kinds of things need to be smoothed out over time. I just hope it's sooner, rather than later.


I dont see how keywords would make a difference to this timing issue. I see the use of "and the like" as a quick and simple way of saying "You can choose to use any power/ability that can be activated at this time", which is much longer to say/type/print than "and the like".

I think we are all guilty of overreading the cards and rules in an attempt to get our minds around this game.
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Jason Nopa
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Well, other games with specific timing use keywords when telling you when you can perform actions. MtG back in the day used "instant" and "interrupt", Star Wars LCG uses "Action" and "Reaction", etc.

What I'm really looking for is a keyword on cards, like "Reaction: do ...", and then the rule can say "Reaction abilities may be used at this time" instead of "and the like". Then we'd know that only reactions would be used at that particular time.

So now we're faced without that, and improper rule interpretation means that some of us are playing certain cards wrong. In those instances, card values are increased or decreased accordingly.

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Jonathan Sugiyama
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Is there a second "declare attackers" step after using this ability? No
Is there a second "declare blockers" step after using this ability? No

So why would you assume that forcing a new character to attack can happen DURING the combat step? This makes no sense. The rules have very clearly stated when you can attack and when you cannot. The effect forces the target to attack at the next legal time an attack would be possible. Per the rules that is only one time, during "declare attackers".

In order to assume a new attack would be allowed would be to add new rules to the rule book. This effect is clear on what is does and does not do.

Global: Pay [1 Bolt] . Target character must attack.

Does it say attack immediately? No
Does it say attack upon resolution? No
Does it say add another attacker to battle? No
Does it say use during combat step? No

Does it say attack character must attack? Yes

THATS IT. That's all the card says. And applying the text to rules of the game: "During the attack step, the attacking player can use any actions still in the reserve pool. In addition, both players can use global abilities whenever appropriate; that is, they can use global abilities that react to damage and the like when that happens, and they can use other global abilities after blockers are declared.
The attack goes through the following steps, in order:
1) Declare Attackers
2) Declare Blockers
3) Use Actions and Global Abilities
4) Assign Damage"


Using the global ability comes way after the effect could possibly be useful. So you can only use the effect properly in the main step. Also the rules state "If you do not attack, your turn immediately ends (neither player can use global abilities in this case)." So you cannot use the global effect in the attack step if the opponent has declared they are not attacking.
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