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Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game – Exodus Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Cylons Checking other Cylons rss

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Kenneth H
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We had a bizarre situation occur last night that I had never even considered before and couldn't find on here. The setup: Adama and Zarek are revealed Cylons during the Crossroads Phase. Both revealed at 7 Distance, so they still had all of their loyalty cards. Zarek's Crossroads card is Strange Music, which he resolves Benevolently. Can he look at one random loyalty card belonging to Adama?

While it felt strange, we couldn't think of any line in the rules that forbid it, and besides, the Cylons really needed some help at that moment. Adama was known to be holding the Final Five Damage Galactica card. We did neglect to look at a random card, however, skipping right ahead to damaging Galactica twice. So, in retrospect, I guess there's only a 50% chance Cylons won that game. (Less if it's decided that the play was illegal for some reason.)

Oh. While we're here, was it ever decided just what the hell happens with 1 - strength Engineering cards when Establish Network is played on Adama's turn?
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Pasi Ojala
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Should be in Exodus.

If there are Final Five in play, looking at any unrevealed loyalty card is a risk or a blessing.
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This oughtta be in the Exodus forums
Flamethrower49 wrote:
We had a bizarre situation occur last night that I had never even considered before and couldn't find on here. The setup: Adama and Zarek are revealed Cylons during the Crossroads Phase. Both revealed at 7 Distance, so they still had all of their loyalty cards. Zarek's Crossroads card is Strange Music, which he resolves Benevolently. Can he look at one random loyalty card belonging to Adama?

While it felt strange, we couldn't think of any line in the rules that forbid it, and besides, the Cylons really needed some help at that moment. Adama was known to be holding the Final Five Damage Galactica card. We did neglect to look at a random card, however, skipping right ahead to damaging Galactica twice. So, in retrospect, I guess there's only a 50% chance Cylons won that game. (Less if it's decided that the play was illegal for some reason.)
IIRC, this hasn't been FAQ-ed, so "a player" should mean any player.

Nothing but Static: You must choose a player and look at all of his Loyalty Cards. Then discard 1 trauma token.

Flamethrower49 wrote:
Oh. While we're here, was it ever decided just what the hell happens with 1 - strength Engineering cards when Establish Network is played on Adama's turn?

It was asked and we did get an official (or official enough) answer... those cards that look at values (including Red Tape) use the printed value, as opposed to the adjusted values (e.g. from Adama's special, Galen's OPG).

Can't recall what happens if a blue 0 gets changed to 1 due to Daybreak's All Hands On Deck. IIRC, still the printed value is used.

a1bert wrote:
If there are Final Five in play, looking at any unrevealed loyalty card is a risk or a blessing.
That's a given, but they're trying to take advantage of the knowledge of knowing a revealed cylon still has a FF.
 
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Kenneth H
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You're right, should be in Exodus. I was thinking it involved components from multiple expansions for some reason, but that's clearly not the case.

I posted this without my cards handy, so I may be wrong on some details. I'll follow up after I look at them.
 
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Liam
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Moved from Battlestar Galactica to Battlestar Galactica: Exodus Expansion
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David F
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Rules as written suggest you can, so I'm sure FFG will say you can if you ask.

Adama still had 2 facedown loyalty cards? Did you exclude the faceup cylon card?

I'm inclined to believe Establish Network on blue 1 for Adama's ability is a +2.

 
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Carl Bussema
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I dug out my original contact to Tim for the Establish Network answer in the FAQ.

Me: " Quick Thinking vs. Establish Networks: Given the precedent that Red Tape only checks printed values, can Quick Thinking be used to pick up a blue 2 or 3 from a checking with Establish Networks (assume the current player has resolved Establish Networks first)."
Tim: "Yes. Quick Thinking refers to the printed strength of the card."

Ergo, by extension, I rule:
1. Adama's ability only works on things that are actually 1s (not 0s made into 1s). This doesn't seem debatable at all.
2. Establish Network applies after Adama's ability and turns a blue 1 that would not normally be positive in a blue 2 which is still positive. Rationale: Adama's ability is written "when you draw a crisis card...." Thus, the timing of his ability is actually extremely high in the order. I would place it at step 1.5 in the master order from the UFAQ:
1. Draw Crisis Card, taking into account Roslin's "Religious Visions"
1.5 Will Adama's Inspiration Leader makes all 1s count positive for this check.
2. Read Crisis Card
...

Yes, placing it that high doesn't really do anything, in fact, this might not even have a skill check on it, but the ability doesn't technically require it. Even ignoring that, we could still Starbuck this crisis, or Boomer it. But for example, we definitely need to know that this is true before Dee uses Fast Learner, since she needs to know whether those treachery 1's are going to spike or not.

So since the printed value of the card is still 1, Adama still gets to make it positive, and the fact that establish network has made it a 2 value doesn't change that.
 
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Kenneth H
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selwyth wrote:
Adama still had 2 facedown loyalty cards? Did you exclude the faceup cylon card?


I misremembered Strange Music, so Zarek got to see all of the cards, and the Cylons definitely won. So ignore that part. Adama only had two loyalty cards.

Cool. Clear conscience! But, to be clear, we think it would work the same way if a revealed Cylon chose, say, Code Blue with Caprica and the skill check was passed? If he chose his revealed Cylon buddy with a F5 loyalty card that didn't get passed on, the Cylon would then shuffle his two loyalty cards, the unrevealed one and the revealed Cylon card, and the other Cylon would pick one at random, inflicting the F5 effect if applicable. Does this seem sensible and correct to people?
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Pasi Ojala
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Flamethrower49 wrote:
Code Blue with Caprica and the skill check was passed? If he chose his revealed Cylon buddy with a F5 loyalty card that didn't get passed on, the Cylon would then shuffle his two loyalty cards, the unrevealed one and the revealed Cylon card


1. If an effect does not specify "unrevealed loyalty card", it really should. You never should re-hide a revealed loyalty card, IMHO.

2. If you play a crisis from Caprica, the effect can not target a cylon player (scratch the ambiguous 'harmful effect' and be consistent) even if it specifies "a player" instead of "a human player".
 
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Simon Kamber
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a1bert wrote:
1. If an effect does not specify "unrevealed loyalty card", it really should. You never should re-hide a revealed loyalty card, IMHO.


If we're talking about 'should', I would rather say that it should target human players only.
 
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a1bert wrote:
Flamethrower49 wrote:
Code Blue with Caprica and the skill check was passed? If he chose his revealed Cylon buddy with a F5 loyalty card that didn't get passed on, the Cylon would then shuffle his two loyalty cards, the unrevealed one and the revealed Cylon card


1. If an effect does not specify "unrevealed loyalty card", it really should. You never should re-hide a revealed loyalty card, IMHO.

2. If you play a crisis from Caprica, the effect can not target a cylon player (scratch the ambiguous 'harmful effect' and be consistent) even if it specifies "a player" instead of "a human player".

1- so you would house rule that an examined FF card just stays face up? If so, even though it rarely happens, it's still crucial that the card can get reexamined again after getting shuffled back the first time.

2- I believe that's the way it is anyways. A cylon player could, although I've yet to see this, ignore the Treachery draw and choose to discard skill cards.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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ackmondual wrote:
1- so you would house rule that an examined FF card just stays face up? If so, even though it rarely happens, it's still crucial that the card can get reexamined again after getting shuffled back the first time.

Silly you. Game-mechanically an examined FF card is never 'revealed' in a way Personal Goals and You are a Cylon cards are. (If you get executed, You are Not a Cylon cards are revealed too, but those are no longer your loyalty cards after you have selected a new character.) A Final Five card is turned face down immediately after applying the effect as instructed in the card (?).
 
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Robert Stewart
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ackmondual wrote:
Can't recall what happens if a blue 0 gets changed to 1 due to Daybreak's All Hands On Deck.


AHOD doesn't change the values of the cards - instead, it adds 1 to the total value of the check for each 0 (so it's always positive)
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Carl Bussema
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I'm going to put in for clarification to FFG.

Personally, I think the following rules SHOULD apply but agree that they don't:
1. Revealed Cylons can't look at other players' loyalty cards.
2. Other players can't look at Revealed Cylons' [unrevealed] loyalty cards (reminding themselves of what your reveal power was should be fair game).

#1 is debatable, it just doesn't quite sit right with me. But it's such a corner case that it's hardly worth caring about. There's at least some thematic justification to allow it anyway; clearly not all the Cylons knew who the other Cylons were, although they showed no interest in discovering it (compared to the humans, who were actively looking for ways to prove/disprove someone as a Cylon).

#2 There's no good reason to look at Revealed Cylon's other loyalty cards. At best, I suppose he could have 4 cards (classic Baltar and classic Boomer in game. Baltar reveals early enough to pass his cards to Boomer, who reveals late enough that she can't pass her cards). Knowing that those are personal goals or final five cards that you don't have to worry about? I guess, that's a pretty minor benefit though. And thematically, it makes no sense. You KNOW they're a Cylon. For game mechanic purposes, their other loyalty cards might as well not exist.

I at least intend to implement #2 as a house rule pending further discussions with FFG.
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Mindy G
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I think the appropriate house rule is that cylons always pass all loyalty cards regardless of distance, so they should never have unrevealed loyalty cards (as they are a cylon and that's all that matters). But I know someone will say but passing PGs at distance 7 isn't fair to whoever gets it and now needs to do it, but that's an issue with using PGs, which are dumb.
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Kenneth H
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a1bert wrote:

2. If you play a crisis from Caprica, the effect can not target a cylon player (scratch the ambiguous 'harmful effect' and be consistent) even if it specifies "a player" instead of "a human player".


Is there a specific rule for that? It's clear that revealed Cylons can't be sent to Sickbay or the Brig, but any loyalty cards they may still have seem like fair game.

I think I will probably go ahead and institute the house rule that extra loyalty cards are always passed on a reveal. It's just cleaner that way.
 
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Carl Bussema
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Ruling from Zach, FFG wrote:

(Questions and answers have been paraphrased for maximum clarity and do not reflect direct quotes.)

1. Can revealed Cylons examine loyalty cards if permitted by a game effect (for example, they use Caprica and the players pass a crisis that has "Pass: Current player looks at a loyalty card belonging to the President or Admiral")?
Yes. Note that the revealed Cylon is immune to Final Five effects that would brig or execute him or her.

2. Can a player (human or Cylon) choose a revealed Cylon's unrevealed loyalty cards when instructed to "examine a loyalty card"?
No.


(Edited for clarity now that I'm back on a real keyboard)
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InfoCynic wrote:
Ruling from Zach, FFG wrote:

(Questions and answers have been paraphrased for maximum clarity and do not reflect direct quotes.)

1. Can revealed Cylons examine loyalty cards if permitted by a game effect (for example, they use Caprica and the players pass a crisis that has "Pass: Current player looks at a loyalty card belonging to the President or Admiral")?
Yes. Note that the revealed Cylon is immune to Final Five effects that would brig or execute him or her.

2. Can a player (human or Cylon) choose a revealed Cylon's unrevealed loyalty cards when instructed to "examine a loyalty card"?
No.


(Edited for clarity now that I'm back on a real keyboard)


1- Makes sense. On a tertiary note, it's good to hear this if nothing else, that's how I've been playing this since the base game.

2- dang... so this actually encourages cylons with FF to reveal sooner rather than staying hidden till the end. However, it seems balanced out by forcing someone to look at a human/unrevealed cylon's Loyalty cards, where most of them would be clustered after cylons reveal.
 
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Jukka-Pekka Tuominen
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InfoCynic wrote:
At best, I suppose he could have 4 cards--


I think "at best" he can actually have way more than 4 cards".

1) If you have both Baltar and Boomer in a 6-person-game you might have a situation where Baltar receives Sympathizer in Sleeper Phase and becomes a Cylon Sympathizer. And giving his two remaining cards to any player.
2) Later Boomer reveales to be a Cylon and passes her 2 remaining cards to the same player.
3) Eventually there is a revealed cylon at time when the humas are already pass distance 7 (so he won't pass his remaining cards).

The one player would now that 4 cards passed to him and also his own 2 loyalty cards that were normally dealt. So 6 cards in total.

Hopefully I have not understood the rules wrong (as I hardly ever play with Sympathizer).
 
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M. B. Downey
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jutuomin wrote:
I think "at best" he can actually have way more than 4 cards".

1) If you have both Baltar and Boomer in a 6-person-game you might have a situation where Baltar receives Sympathizer in Sleeper Phase and gives his two remaining cards to any player.
2) Later Boomer reveales to be a Cylon and passes her 2 remaining cards to the same player.
3) Eventually there is a revealed cylon at time when the humas are already pass distance 7 (so he won't pass his remaining cards).

The one player would now that 4 cards passed to him and also his own 2 loyalty cards that were normally dealt. So 6 cards in total.

Hopefully I have not understood the rules wrong (as I hardly ever play with Sympathizer).


"At best" means you are not playing with the Sympathizer, because it is terrible.
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Carl Bussema
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The statement was in the context of a revealed Cylon. Show me a revealed Cylon with more than 4 unknown loyalty cards.
 
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Jukka-Pekka Tuominen
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InfoCynic wrote:
The statement was in the context of a revealed Cylon. Show me a revealed Cylon with more than 4 unknown loyalty cards.


Well in same scenario, but all the cards given are given to the player who becomes a revealed Cylon. He will now have 5 unknown Loyalty Cards + the one YAAC card.
 
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Carl Bussema
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Hm.
Baltar: 2 misc NOT CYLON + sympathizer -> turns Cylon (due to sympathizer) -> passes 2 to Boomer
Boomer: 2 misc NOT CYLON + 2 from baltar + 1 Cylon -> passes 4 to X
X: 1 misc NOT CYLON + 4 from Boomer + 1 Cylon = 5

OK, so yes, you can have 5, but A) that's not WAY more and B) it requires playing with the sympathizer and C) it's moot, since you can't look at a revealed Cylon's other loyalty cards anyway. But points for finding a way.
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InfoCynic wrote:
Hm.
Baltar: 2 misc NOT CYLON + symp -> turns Cylon -> passes 2 to Boomer
Boomer: 2 misc NOT CYLON + 2 from baltar + 1 Cylon -> passes 4 to X
X: 1 misc NOT CYLON + 4 from Boomer + 1 Cylon = 5

OK, so yes, you can have 5, but A) that's not WAY more and B) it requires playing with the sympathizer and C) it's moot, since you can't look at a revealed Cylon's other loyalty cards anyway. But points for finding a way.


Baltar, Boomer and "X" are all cylons in this example? Three cylons? Thought you can only have two at max.
 
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Mindy G
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Baltar is the symp in a 6p game who turned "cylon" at sleeper. You might not know this because the symp sucks and should never be used.
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