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Subject: Dreamlands map revealed rss

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Sid Rain
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Between Dreamlands being revealed and the Yuggoth video that just went up, it's gone all Cthulhu Wars Mappapalooza up in here. Here's some thoughts/observations on Dreamlands:

* The map has a very claustrophobic feel to it compared to Earth, not just because there's an Underworld portion of it, but also because of the relative lack of movement options. On average, each area in Dreamlands connects to a smaller portion of the map. Gone are Oceans like the North Atlantic, the North Pacific and others that give you access to just about every other area on the map. The Vale of Pnath Sea gives you access to everything else in the Underworld, but it sounds like the Bhole makes his home there as well, so it may not be so tempting.

* 22 areas altogether on the 5-player map, which gives you a chance to actually use all 22 of the plastic Gates if you ordered them.

* Red Die symbols are on the map similar to the Yuggoth map, perhaps tied in with the Bhole and the Zoogs? Zoogs affect the Surface and the Bhole affects the underworld?

Great Cthulhu:
Pros: He's got Yellow Sign to beat up/contend with early on. I assume his Submerge ability gives him more flexibility than the other factions to travel between maps. More Ocean areas means more mileage out of Y'ha Nthlei.
Cons: Right next to Yellow Sign and because of Yellow Sign & Crawling Chaos' reduced movement options mean they will nearly always be competing with you for Ocean areas.

Crawling Chaos:
Pros: Sitting on his island, he has a commanding view of any movement towards his stronghold. He has easy access to the Underworld and from the Peaks of Throk can get to any other area on that map, potentially winning by taking the Citadels.
Cons: His Flight ability doesn't get him as far as it would on Earth, he just can't cover nearly as many areas and it would appear he loses a bit of his maneuverability advantage. In addition, he starts in an island area that could potentially put him adjacent to Windwalker.

Black Goat:
Pros: Starts in the most uncontested area in the beginning. He will never start adjacent to other factions, which should let you build your power base relatively unmolested.
Cons: Sharing areas with all your enemies will be tough since you don't have the North Atlantic to springboard off of

Yellow Sign:
Pros: He starts off in control of one of the Dreamland citadels, 1/4th of the way to a special victory condition and only one away from controlling half the citadels on the Surface. However, whatever happens on a roll of 4-6 on those spots remains to be seen.
Cons: Adjacent to Cthulhu and starts in a location with only two connected areas. So you're either definitely going to be in conflict with Cthulhu, or potentially in conflict with Crawling Chaos. A more delayed desecration schedule since he'll need to find passage to the Underworld to get that last glyph desecrated and he has to pass through enemy territory every time.

Windwalker:
Pros: Starts in a relatively quiet area of the map that gives him plenty of options on the Surface. Otherwise he's directly adjacent to Crawling Chaos if he starts in the Underworld, but still has plenty of expansion options.
Cons: Has a harder time getting all his spellbooks since he now has to traverse 4 areas to get to his other symbol rather than the three that he has on Earth.

Opener of the Way:
Pros: Can pick and choose where he wants to start, same as always. His Beyond One ability gives him another option for traveling between levels and also giving him a nice way to swoop in on citadels before the other factions.
Cons: Has potentially no map-specific weaknesses, unless his spellbooks are harder to get because he needs 8 and 12 gates to exist on a single map of Dreamlands, but that's just crazy talk.

Sleeper:
Pros: As on Earth he has no direct competition to deal with in the early game and can slowly build his power up and pick and choose who on the surface he wants to mess with. He is however, mostly alone with the Bhole in the underworld. If ignored, he could potentially pick up a special victory relatively easily.
Cons: All that open space in the Underworld will look awefully tempting to the Surface factions to jump down on. Also, the way the tunnels are laid out, it may not be immediately apparent who is about to travel down and when. There's also that total Bhole that you have to deal with down there, are you trapped in there with him, or he with you?
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Sandy Petersen
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Cthulhu is, very often, the faction that goes for a surface world Citadel victory. Submerge is super-useful in doing this, and since he can earn spellbooks by killing Zoogs (instead of other factions) this can spurs him forward. He is nerfed a bit by being next to the other factions and not starting on a Citadel.

Crawling Chaos frequently does a complete shift from the Surface to an Underworld focus - starting on a tunnel with Flight means he can get to ~half the Underworld Areas from his starting location - actually better access than he has to the Surface.

Your Black Goat analysis is spot on - he is in a "safe spot" and usually turtles down in the land peninsula to his east, trying to Ritual his way to the win. He is probably the faction who least often focuses on a Citadel win.

Yellow Sign is forced to travel to the Underworld to get one of his spellbooks. He is also both handicapped and boosted by the presence of a Citadel in his starting Area - handicapped because Zoogs can show up and pester his Cultists. He can also use the Zoogs to pain his Cultists into nearby Areas. I usually don't see him go for a Citadel victory, but he does have a head-start.

Windwalker does have further to travel to his other glyph, but his movement and summoning abilities are enhanced on this map. Citadel victories are opportunistic, since he generally has only one BIG turn in which to score it.

I see Opener of the Way start in the Underworld probably 75% of the time on this map - particularly if Sleeper is in the game. His ability to move Gates, and to count Yog as a Gate makes him a prime contender for a Citadel victory. More than once I have seen Opener one step away from an instant win, and then the Bhole ate Yog-Sothoth.

Sleeper can go for a Citadel victory too, in the Underworld of course. It is risky, with the Bhole gobbling up his Gates but that's life Down Below. And as you said, who is trapped with who?
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Sid Rain
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Sandy Petersen wrote:
His ability to move Gates, and to count Yog as a Gate makes him a prime contender for a Citadel victory.


So does this mean that simply having Yog-Sothoth in an area with a Citadel, he also counts that towards his Citadel count as well? Would the same apply to Yuggoth as well and having a controlled Gate on the Pyramid and on the Slime Sea Overlook (he gets extra power or he can summon Slimes)? What if Yog-Sothoth is in one of these areas with a controlled Gate owned by another player? I can't remember if this was brought up in the Yuggoth video.
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paddirn wrote:
Sandy Petersen wrote:
His ability to move Gates, and to count Yog as a Gate makes him a prime contender for a Citadel victory.


So does this mean that simply having Yog-Sothoth in an area with a Citadel, he also counts that towards his Citadel count as well? Would the same apply to Yuggoth as well and having a controlled Gate on the Pyramid and on the Slime Sea Overlook (he gets extra power or he can summon Slimes)? What if Yog-Sothoth is in one of these areas with a controlled Gate owned by another player? I can't remember if this was brought up in the Yuggoth video.


As I recall, Yog-Sothoth counts as a controlled gate in all cases. He produces an extra power on the Pyramid, he can summon slimes from the Overlook, and he counts as controlling a Citadel when standing on one.

However, a player with a "true" gate on one of these locations with a cultist on it supersedes Yog-Sothoth. In other words, he can't just walk onto the Overlook where a gate and cultist control it, and take it over. You still have to evict the previous tenant.
 
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René Schep
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Also he counts as a gate in the water for Cthulhu's spellbook requirement and spellbook if he's in an ocean. Which is pretty important to remember.
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Sandy Petersen
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A "real" Gate supercedes Yog-Sothoth on the Outlook, true. However, if he is at the Laboratory along with a "real" Gate belonging to someone else, BOTH factions can use the Surgery action.

Yog's ability also counts in the Dreamlands - to win via a Citadel victory means you need a Gate on all four Citadels on a single map. He counts as one of the Gates, even if someone else is there, too. But there is a vulnerability - the Bhole eats Gates - including Yog-Sothoth. It has happened at least twice in our games. Both times Opener was going for a Citadel victory and if the Bhole hadn't eaten him, he would probably have immediately won.
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Dave Mendiola
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Sandy Petersen wrote:
But there is a vulnerability - the Bhole eats Gates - including Yog-Sothoth. It has happened at least twice in our games. Both times Opener was going for a Citadel victory and if the Bhole hadn't eaten him, he would probably have immediately won.


That's fantastic.
 
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Adam Starks
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I have a deep, deep desire to see a Dreamlands game where Yog-Sothoth is both destroyed by awakening Ithaqua and then later eaten by the Bhole.
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Arturo Cavari
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AdamStarks wrote:
I have a deep, deep desire to see a Dreamlands game where Yog-Sothoth is both destroyed by awakening Ithaqua and then later eaten by the Bhole.


That would be magnificent *_*
 
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AdamStarks wrote:
I have a deep, deep desire to see a Dreamlands game where Yog-Sothoth is both destroyed by awakening Ithaqua and then later eaten by the Bhole.


Wow.

So, don't know if Robertghent told you guys, but he and his brother are coming down to TX again tomorrow and I have taken the day off from work and we will play CW! I imagine we will do games with the expansion maps since we now have the good art for them - hopefully we will record some of these games. Link just got a whole new camera and mic for GEG (which was used in the recent youtube videos), so the quality will hopefully be even better than previous sessions.

Maybe I will be Opener and try to win on Dreamlands via the underworld citadels, inviting the Bhole to come and try to get me?
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René Schep
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Sounds awesome it kind of sucks that I'm stuck in Europe
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Greg Robertson
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Yes, I will be travelling back to Texas tomorrow for another round of Cthulhu Wars! I can't wait to give the game another go. My brother and I had a great trip in January. So this time should be even MORE fun.

This time I have a better camera for pictures. And I will be taking my notepad for game play session reviews. My last trip I was a bit too caught up in the moment to post.

I will also be writing a full review of Cthulhu Wars when I return home. So I will be sure to take lots of photos for you guys!

Are other Great Old Ones giving you a hard time? Then summon Hastur of the Yellow Sign!
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existoid wrote:
AdamStarks wrote:
I have a deep, deep desire to see a Dreamlands game where Yog-Sothoth is both destroyed by awakening Ithaqua and then later eaten by the Bhole.


Wow.

So, don't know if Robertghent told you guys, but he and his brother are coming down to TX again tomorrow and I have taken the day off from work and we will play CW! I imagine we will do games with the expansion maps since we now have the good art for them - hopefully we will record some of these games. Link just got a whole new camera and mic for GEG (which was used in the recent youtube videos), so the quality will hopefully be even better than previous sessions.

Maybe I will be Opener and try to win on Dreamlands via the underworld citadels, inviting the Bhole to come and try to get me?


Yes! Can't wait for the new videos!

Valandor wrote:
Sounds awesome it kind of sucks that I'm stuck in Europe


I feel your pain Valandor...
 
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Pierre Lanrezac
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thegrinder wrote:

Valandor wrote:
Sounds awesome it kind of sucks that I'm stuck in Europe


I feel your pain Valandor...


Ditto...
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