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Subject: Cliff LOS Question. rss

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Jim Jackson

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In the situation below, does Hex F4 have LOS to Hexes G6 and H7?


I am wondering since the LOS goes directly across the Cliff Hex Spine, so is that considered as crossing the same level elevation that F4 is on, or is it considered to cross at the lower level elevation, making an American Fire Order possible and vise versa for the Germans.

Thanks in advance for any help. Just a bit confused.
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Mark Buetow
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It's blocked, since the LOS crosses elevation at the same level.
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Jim Jackson

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Mark,

Thanks for the quick reply!
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Russ Williams
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Malacandra wrote:
It's blocked, since the LOS crosses elevation at the same level.

Is this for sure? The LOS is crossing the cliff hexside itself; it's not crossing any of the high hex's internal area.

Normally an elevation change occurs at a crest line, and the rules define how that works sufficiently clearly, but it depends on the fact that the crestlines go through hexes, not on hexsides between hexes (as cliffs do).

The dark art blob representing a cliff seems to look like the sheer almost-vertical cliff face, not the higher level of the 2 adjacent hexes, when I look at the cliffs on map 12. So the hexside itself seems to be at some ambiguous level between the 2 levels of its 2 adjacent hexes, rather than at the higher level of its 2 adjacent hexes.

If the cliff art does indeed represent the higher level of its 2 adjacent hexes, then that means that on map 12 there is no LOS between any of these hex pairs:
H5 & I4, G5 & I5, I5 & H6, H5 & J5, J3 & K5.

This is somewhat surprising to me, as the LOS seems to move along the sheer almost-vertical face of the cliff (as opposed to moving along the top of the cliff), and it's not clear to me that it would block the LOS in all those example pairs on map 12.

But I honestly don't know, and I'm (to my surprise) finding it a bit hard to find a clear explanation of this in the rules. Do the rules anywhere define the elevation of the cliff hexside art itself?

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Ruben Rigillo
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I think Cliff hexsides block los as they would be a steep crest.
The top of the cliff is actually at the elevation of the higher hex.
Regarding LOS cliff hexsides should be considered as "crest hexsides" and so blocking LOS if they don't pertain firing/target unit hex.
IMHO they make the big difference in movement bot not in LOS.
 
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Dan Huffman
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Falcon2 wrote:
In the situation below, does Hex F4 have LOS to Hexes G6 and H7?


I am wondering since the LOS goes directly across the Cliff Hex Spine, so is that considered as crossing the same level elevation that F4 is on, or is it considered to cross at the lower level elevation, making an American Fire Order possible and vise versa for the Germans.

Thanks in advance for any help. Just a bit confused.


T83. Cliff wrote:

MOVE COST: Impassable;
CLIMBING: a unit without a Weapon may Advance
[O16] across a Cliff hexside.
COVER: none
LOS: Clear


So both hexes are actually clear, by my reading.
 
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Russ Williams
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huffman123 wrote:
T83. Cliff wrote:

MOVE COST: Impassable;
CLIMBING: a unit without a Weapon may Advance
[O16] across a Cliff hexside.
COVER: none
LOS: Clear


So both hexes are actually clear, by my reading.

Note that the "LOS: Clear" in those terrain descriptions doesn't take into account elevation changes.

E.g. Open ground terrain also has "LOS: Clear", but that doesn't mean that a LOS through only open ground hexes is always unblocked - elevation changes can also block LOS. (E.g. LOS is blocked between A3 and E5 in the OP's map even though it's only open ground the whole way.)

So the question hinges upon what elevation the cliff hexside art is considered to be at.
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Dan Huffman
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OK, so this time I read the rules, but not the post. blush

I think I'm agreeing with you, Russ. Though we had been playing them clear. I don't see anything in the rules to dispute you. In fact, I think it is clear that they *do* block LOS, once you read the rules slowly. :-)
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Bryan Collars
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Gentlemen,

Don't fall into the trap of thinking the rules "say something" that isn't there.

First thing to remember is that LOS questions are based upon on map artwork coupled with a rule for that graphic.

T83 says that the Cliff artwork is a Clear LOS. It is immaterial what elevation it is because Cliff artwork doesn't have elevation. The hexes it divides have elevation.

Elevation is depicted and shown by the base color of the hex with the actual change in elevation (or crest line) represented by where the base hex color changes on the map.

In the case of Cliffs the crest line is where the higher elevation hex color meets the cliff graphic, the same also applies to the lower elevation hex where that hex color meets the cliff graphic.

Its important to note that Cliff hexsides represent everything from a vertical cliff face to a steep slope. If I had a scenario where the Cliff graphic represented a vertical elevation change I'd make it a SSR that stated that the cliff graphic blocked LOS if the LOS was traced along the hexspine.


Now since I've made a declarative statement we just have to wait a bit for Chad or Rich to chime in and tell everyone that I'm bonkers and that the Cliff graphic actually blocks LOS in these instances.
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Dan Huffman
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NinetySixer wrote:
Gentlemen,

Don't fall into the trap of thinking the rules "say something" that isn't there.

...

Elevation is depicted and shown by the base color of the hex with the actual change in elevation (or crest line) represented by where the base hex color changes on the map.

In the case of Cliffs the crest line is where the higher elevation hex color meets the cliff graphic, the same also applies to the lower elevation hex where that hex color meets the cliff graphic.

...


T88.3.1 Military Crest Lines wrote:

A hex showing more than one level is termed
a “Crest” hex. The level at which a Crest
hex’s center dot lies is its actual level. In
every Crest hex, the physical edge of the
higher-level Hill is termed the “Crest Line”.


So at the risk of being wrong again, I'll just toss out these two quotes. :-)
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Christopher
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For a related discussion, see: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9438718
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Russ Williams
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Chad's comment http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9438718#9438718 in that thread suggests that I was right to wonder!

Chad Jensen wrote:
The ruling I've made before applies here as well: where any cliff hexside is concerned, the hill crest line is considered to be where the hill and cliff meet. So there *is* a clear LOS between I5 and K5 on map 47 (and elsewhere) since cliffs do not block or hinder LOS.


So it seems that a LOS coinciding with a cliff hexside is indeed not actually blocked by it because the cliff hexside itself is not at the same height as the higher adjacent hex: the cliff hexside itself is apparently below the crest line of that higher adjacent hex.

Unless I am confused, of course.
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Ruben Rigillo
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So Cliffs works like Crests if LOS pass THROUGH and as Open if LOS runs along?
Thanks Gentlemen!
(Dang! Not even a wall or fence works this way!
What am i missing?)

EDIT:parenthesys
 
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Lehr
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This relates to a question I have had on map 12, but have not gotten around to asking, and thanks to Russ for posting the perfect image of map 12 above.

On map 12...

...is the LOS D5-C7 clear?

...is the LOS D5-E7 clear?

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Dan Huffman
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So Lehr, I've been wrong twice so far, but just to keep that streak alive.....

I'm going to say Yes, there is a LOS. The Crest hexside ends at the Wall. Thus the wall is on the lower level. I cite my quote of the rule book above: The 2nd level ends at the beginning of the crest. That is why the cliffs are LOS: clear. They are effectively on the lower level.


Anyway, that's my opinion. I'm sure the correct answer will be forthcoming. :-)
 
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Stephen Stewart
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not that it really means anything but in ASL cliff sides do not block los either
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Mark Buetow
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Well turns out I was looking at the wrong hex anyway. I looked at G7 (which IS blocked) and not H7.

On the actual map, FWIW, the crest line is in the middle of the cliff depiction, nearly the hex side itself. I guess that would really make a difference as you're shooting to a lower hex in both cases and there's no INTERVENING same elevation hex.
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Christopher
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Do you have to give back your geek gold now?
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Jim Jackson

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Quote:
So it seems that a LOS coinciding with a cliff hexside is indeed not actually blocked by it because the cliff hexside itself is not at the same height as the higher adjacent hex: the cliff hexside itself is apparently below the crest line of that higher adjacent hex.


I think that this is logical. I was thinking that the Cliff Hexspine would be at the SAME elevation as the higher hex, i.e. a "shear drop" and not necessarily a "steep slope".

So, I now believe that LOS to G6 and G7 from the American hex are NOT BLOCKED. I really appreciate everyone's replies! Thanks.
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Christopher Hill
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The way I've always looked at a cliff in CC is a crest line that follows the hex side. Nothing different from a normal crest line other than movement isn't allowed across it; only advance with units not carrying a weapon.

In the original question the line of sight between hexes F4 and G6/G7 passes over the hex side of hex F5 which is also a cliff and a crest line. Since hex F4 and hex F5 are at the same elevation and the cliff on hex side F5 does nothing to change this, LOS is blocked.

I can understand how folks would get tangled up trying to interpret this as I have had many cob webs infesting my brain on other things in the past. But once the light goes on it all makes sense from a logical standpoint.
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Christopher Hill
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Ahhh...whoops! Looks like I have gone against the grain again. Oh, well. I think I will just play it the way I have been because it makes the most sense to me in conjunction with the rules. Maybe Chad will chime in at some point.
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Jim Jackson

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Quote:
Do you have to give back your geek gold now?


Absolutely not! I have learned a lot from Mark's responses to CC questions I have asked in the past, plus read many of his responses to other questions asked by other users that have been extremely helpful. In addition to all the other Scenario information he has provided for players. .

Isn't Mark the one who played each Scenario in chronological order with an AAR for each?
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Jim Jackson

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Quote:
First thing to remember is that LOS questions are based upon on map artwork coupled with a rule for that graphic.

T83 says that the Cliff artwork is a Clear LOS. It is immaterial what elevation it is because Cliff artwork doesn't have elevation. The hexes it divides have elevation.

Elevation is depicted and shown by the base color of the hex with the actual change in elevation (or crest line) represented by where the base hex color changes on the map.

In the case of Cliffs the crest line is where the higher elevation hex color meets the cliff graphic, the same also applies to the lower elevation hex where that hex color meets the cliff graphic.

Its important to note that Cliff hexsides represent everything from a vertical cliff face to a steep slope. If I had a scenario where the Cliff graphic represented a vertical elevation change I'd make it a SSR that stated that the cliff graphic blocked LOS if the LOS was traced along the hexspine.



Thanks Bryan, allows me to visualize what the Cliff depiction along a hexspine actually represents as to surrounding terrain. I definitely was considering it as a Shear Vertical Cliff Face, and not a "steep slope"!
 
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Christopher Hill
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kinga1965 wrote:
The way I've always looked at a cliff in CC is a crest line that follows the hex side. Nothing different from a normal crest line other than movement isn't allowed across it; only advance with units not carrying a weapon.

In the original question the line of sight between hexes F4 and G6/G7 passes over the hex side of hex F5 which is also a cliff and a crest line. Since hex F4 and hex F5 are at the same elevation and the cliff on hex side F5 does nothing to change this, LOS is blocked.

I can understand how folks would get tangled up trying to interpret this as I have had many cob webs infesting my brain on other things in the past. But once the light goes on it all makes sense from a logical standpoint.


This is intriguing to me. Let's look at it another way. Take out the cliff altogether and pretend the crest line follows the hex side exactly. Would the line of sight pass through a hex of equal (hex F5) or lower (hex G5) height? If equal the argument falls on the side of blocked line of sight. If lower, then it is unblocked.
 
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Bryan Collars
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kinga1965 wrote:
kinga1965 wrote:
The way I've always looked at a cliff in CC is a crest line that follows the hex side. Nothing different from a normal crest line other than movement isn't allowed across it; only advance with units not carrying a weapon.

In the original question the line of sight between hexes F4 and G6/G7 passes over the hex side of hex F5 which is also a cliff and a crest line. Since hex F4 and hex F5 are at the same elevation and the cliff on hex side F5 does nothing to change this, LOS is blocked.

I can understand how folks would get tangled up trying to interpret this as I have had many cob webs infesting my brain on other things in the past. But once the light goes on it all makes sense from a logical standpoint.


This is intriguing to me. Let's look at it another way. Take out the cliff altogether and pretend the crest line follows the hex side exactly. Would the line of sight pass through a hex of equal (hex F5) or lower (hex G5) height? If equal the argument falls on the side of blocked line of sight. If lower, then it is unblocked.


**My Highlight** You will not find a Crest Line that follows a hexspine. Why? Because it is one of the items on the designer's/developer's checklist of things not to do or allow in CC Map Design. Not to say that your hypothetical question isn't intriguing.
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