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Subject: Maneuver cards are a waste of cardboard. rss

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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Are maneuver cards necessary: not one bit.

What do they do? They take up valuable space in the play area while not adding any value.

After the 1st 2 OP's everyone in my area quickly realized they were pointless and we stopped using them. The ONLY time they see table is when a new player is figuring out how maneuver dials work, and even that only lasts 1-2 games.

All my moves are on my dials. When I make moves myself, I flip through my dials to both see what I have and what I want to do. If before the game the opponent asks how my ship moves, I just walk across the table with my dial and walk him or her around the dial and after about 30 seconds every thing is squared away.

Just like my bags of disabled tokens, shields, captain heads, etc. maneuvers cards are just a waste of space I have to find a storage location for.
 
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Allen Gould
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I'm the opposite - I have the cards out every game (they take up half a card space if you slide the picture under the ship), and you can see at a glance what you're working with. And they're pretty standard at store events too.

That said, I also use all those other tokens you don't. (I skimp on captain tokens, because you can see the number from the other side anyway).

Out of curiosity, what do you use instead of shields?
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Someone suggested putting them in a sleeve and marking your maneuver with a dry erase marker versus having a dial for each ship.

I have to transport a fairly large fleet for all factions (no... No Kazon ) and I am going to try the above suggestion this weekend.



For a game where you just need a few dials though, yeah cardboard cards would be useless after you learn the ship.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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anyGould wrote:
I'm the opposite - I have the cards out every game (they take up half a card space if you slide the picture under the ship), and you can see at a glance what you're working with. And they're pretty standard at store events too.

That said, I also use all those other tokens you don't. (I skimp on captain tokens, because you can see the number from the other side anyway).

Out of curiosity, what do you use instead of shields?


Well I use shield tokens, I just only have 24 marked with my initials in gold sharpie in my box. I keep the shields for the other 70+ ships in plastic baggies in the basement. I have 6 of the other tokens all marked with sharpie as well in my box with the rest in bags as well. I have so much extra stuff, I have to make an effort to keep minimal pieces in my play kit.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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MaximumDT wrote:

Someone suggested putting them in a sleeve and marking your maneuver with a dry erase marker versus having a dial for each ship.

I have to transport a fairly large fleet for all factions (no... No Kazon ) and I am going to try the above suggestion this weekend.



For a game where you just need a few dials though, yeah cardboard cards would be useless after you learn the ship.


That actually sounds like a cool idea. I may have to try that on a nice bright yellow dragon shield and see how it looks.
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Jason Jackowski
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They allow your opponent to see what your ship can do. Helpful to newcomers or those unfamiliar with a LE prize you're playing.
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Mauziz
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jmdt784 wrote:
Are maneuver cards necessary: not one bit.

What do they do? They take up valuable space in the play area while not adding any value.


The thing that I love the most about this statement is that on the X-wing forums, people have complained bitterly about the lack of maneuver cards, and there are fan made cards that seem to have gotten quite a bit of attention (or at least a lot of thumbs). I'm also a bit surprised that anybody would complain about getting too much stuff with their expansion packs. Guess you really can't please everybody on the internet...
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Tom Coon
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jmdt784 wrote:
anyGould wrote:
I'm the opposite - I have the cards out every game (they take up half a card space if you slide the picture under the ship), and you can see at a glance what you're working with. And they're pretty standard at store events too.

That said, I also use all those other tokens you don't. (I skimp on captain tokens, because you can see the number from the other side anyway).

Out of curiosity, what do you use instead of shields?


Well I use shield tokens, I just only have 24 marked with my initials in gold sharpie in my box. I keep the shields for the other 70+ ships in plastic baggies in the basement. I have 6 of the other tokens all marked with sharpie as well in my box with the rest in bags as well. I have so much extra stuff, I have to make an effort to keep minimal pieces in my play kit.


hmm, I think I see the problem...it may have been the acquisition of 70+ ships?

in any case, while I personally think there are other areas where there is unneccessary waste (the critical hit tokens, or the reprinting of disable and shield tokens in every expansion) I like maneuver cards as a visual reference. different people, different communities and different places will have differing opinions on their use of course though.
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Aaron Percival
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A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
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Oh good, another thread on this topic. Very helpful.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Zinvictus wrote:
hmm, I think I see the problem...it may have been the acquisition of 70+ ships?

in any case, while I personally think there are other areas where there is unneccessary waste (the critical hit tokens, or the reprinting of disable and shield tokens in every expansion) I like maneuver cards as a visual reference. different people, different communities and different places will have differing opinions on their use of course though.


Yeah I have a disease called ship acquisition syndrome, lol.

There are well over 100 ships belonging to 5 different individuals that stay stored in my basement so I think it is contageous. I actually detest marking on my stuff, but we all had to so we didn't get things confused. I haven't brought myself to mark Genkhan yet, but I also have the only copy in the group.
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Noah Sager
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Just do what someone in my STAW does: put them in the same sleeve as the ship card, with the backs touching. This way you can just flip the ship card over to see the maneuvers. Also lets you hand something to your opponent if they want to know your possible moves.
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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MaximumDT wrote:

Someone suggested putting them in a sleeve and marking your maneuver with a dry erase marker versus having a dial for each ship...


I think that's a great idea, though I'd rather make a larger grid that fills the card better so it's easier to see across the table.
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Aaron Percival
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A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
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I find the maneuver card much quicker to glace at than to scroll through the dial.

Of course, it's also much easier to hand the card over to my opponent, if he wishes to see my ship's capabilities, than to hand over my dial and have to wait until he's done scrolling through it before I can set my move.

Now, whether or not I'm required to let my oppenent see my ship's movement capabilities, that debate is for another thread... whistle
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Percy0715 wrote:
Now, whether or not I'm required to let my oppenent see my ship's movement capabilities, that debate is for another thread... whistle


Only a complete jerk wouldn't tell his opponent the moves his ship makes if asked. That said, no one ever asks about them.

Attack Wing is for fun 1st and foremost. I play with a lot of kids and are they happy just to sit across the table and do their best to stomp you (while young, they may be the most competitive players, lol). At the end of the day its all about everyone having fun and a good experience win or lose.

That said, maneuver cards no way add or detract to the fun anyone has in the game. By the time I hand the bloody card over, I could have told them the moves the ship makes, lol.
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Aaron Percival
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A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
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jmdt784 wrote:
Percy0715 wrote:
Now, whether or not I'm required to let my oppenent see my ship's movement capabilities, that debate is for another thread... whistle


Only a complete jerk wouldn't tell his opponent the moves his ship makes if asked. That said, no one ever asks about them.

Attack Wing is for fun 1st and foremost. I play with a lot of kids and are they happy just to sit across the table and do their best to stomp you (while young, they may be the most competitive players, lol). At the end of the day its all about everyone having fun and a good experience win or lose.

That said, maneuver cards no way add or detract to the fun anyone has in the game. By the time I hand the bloody card over, I could have told them the moves the ship makes, lol.


I completely agree that it would be a complete jerk move to not show/tell someone your possible movements. The question arose as to whether or not it's a must during competitive play. I say, yes of course.

I'd be careful about blanket statements, though. My group--by habit, I guess--also places the maneuver cards on the table with all the other cards. We hand them back and forth often. So, "no one ever asks about them" isn't true for me and others as well, I'm sure.
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jmdt784 wrote:
That said, no one ever asks about them.


I'm always surprised when someone says this. In my area it's a pretty normal thing to see asked. However we don't normally use crit tokens or the card action tokens so I guess that part of the game depends on the players.
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Tom Coon
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jmdt784 wrote:
Zinvictus wrote:
hmm, I think I see the problem...it may have been the acquisition of 70+ ships?

in any case, while I personally think there are other areas where there is unneccessary waste (the critical hit tokens, or the reprinting of disable and shield tokens in every expansion) I like maneuver cards as a visual reference. different people, different communities and different places will have differing opinions on their use of course though.


Yeah I have a disease called ship acquisition syndrome, lol.

There are well over 100 ships belonging to 5 different individuals that stay stored in my basement so I think it is contageous. I actually detest marking on my stuff, but we all had to so we didn't get things confused. I haven't brought myself to mark Genkhan yet, but I also have the only copy in the group.


I'm assuming you have a number of Gr'oth sets...be wary that your tribbles and ships aren't cross-breeding to produce more ships....although if this causes your ships to be able to purr at least that would be cute.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Percy0715 wrote:
jmdt784 wrote:
Percy0715 wrote:
Now, whether or not I'm required to let my oppenent see my ship's movement capabilities, that debate is for another thread... whistle


Only a complete jerk wouldn't tell his opponent the moves his ship makes if asked. That said, no one ever asks about them.

Attack Wing is for fun 1st and foremost. I play with a lot of kids and are they happy just to sit across the table and do their best to stomp you (while young, they may be the most competitive players, lol). At the end of the day its all about everyone having fun and a good experience win or lose.

That said, maneuver cards no way add or detract to the fun anyone has in the game. By the time I hand the bloody card over, I could have told them the moves the ship makes, lol.


I completely agree that it would be a complete jerk move to not show/tell someone your possible movements. The question arose as to whether or not it's a must during competitive play. I say, yes of course.

I'd be careful about blanket statements, though. My group--by habit, I guess--also places the maneuver cards on the table with all the other cards. We hand them back and forth often. So, "no one ever asks about them" isn't true for me and others as well, I'm sure.


Here's an interesting question in return:

Do you guys play pure or mixed faction?

I could see guys at pure faction shops having more difficulty with how ships work since they only use 1 set. We play mixed factions so everyone gets a hand at the gamut of ships in quite quick order and knows how they move.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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Boring day today, Jonathan?
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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rtsuk wrote:
Boring day today, Jonathan?


My laptop has been updating for over an hour while waiting to go try Kaosball, so yeah lol.
 
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Allen Gould
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jmdt784 wrote:

Do you guys play pure or mixed faction?


We play mixed (and keep the cards on-table). We're just a crowd that both wants high-strategy *and* doesn't have the time to memorize all those movement dials.
 
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Aaron Percival
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A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
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jmdt784 wrote:
Percy0715 wrote:
jmdt784 wrote:
Percy0715 wrote:
Now, whether or not I'm required to let my oppenent see my ship's movement capabilities, that debate is for another thread... whistle


Only a complete jerk wouldn't tell his opponent the moves his ship makes if asked. That said, no one ever asks about them.

Attack Wing is for fun 1st and foremost. I play with a lot of kids and are they happy just to sit across the table and do their best to stomp you (while young, they may be the most competitive players, lol). At the end of the day its all about everyone having fun and a good experience win or lose.

That said, maneuver cards no way add or detract to the fun anyone has in the game. By the time I hand the bloody card over, I could have told them the moves the ship makes, lol.


I completely agree that it would be a complete jerk move to not show/tell someone your possible movements. The question arose as to whether or not it's a must during competitive play. I say, yes of course.

I'd be careful about blanket statements, though. My group--by habit, I guess--also places the maneuver cards on the table with all the other cards. We hand them back and forth often. So, "no one ever asks about them" isn't true for me and others as well, I'm sure.


Here's an interesting question in return:

Do you guys play pure or mixed faction?

I could see guys at pure faction shops having more difficulty with how ships work since they only use 1 set. We play mixed factions so everyone gets a hand at the gamut of ships in quite quick order and knows how they move.


It varies. I prefer pure, but I have no preference in faction, so I've played all ships, most a number of times. We've played a bunch of mixed too. The maneuver cards have always been a part of the play area for us, so it's rather normal for them to be handled.

There's a bit of gamesmanship (friendly of course) also. Consider this: I want to know if your ship can come-about. I can,

(1) I can ask to see your card, then set my dial;
(2) I can ask "Can that sucker come-about?" then set my dial;
(3) I can set my dial, ask "Can that pile of space-junk come about?" And the reset my dial based on your answer;
(4) et cetera.

Of course, I can ask because I don't know the answer, or I know the answer and am asking to make you consider why I'm asking.

Friendly gamesmanship.
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Don D.
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Really? C'mon. gulp
 
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Will Holsclaw
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Percy0715 wrote:
jmdt784 wrote:
Percy0715 wrote:
jmdt784 wrote:
Percy0715 wrote:
Now, whether or not I'm required to let my oppenent see my ship's movement capabilities, that debate is for another thread... whistle


Only a complete jerk wouldn't tell his opponent the moves his ship makes if asked. That said, no one ever asks about them.

Attack Wing is for fun 1st and foremost. I play with a lot of kids and are they happy just to sit across the table and do their best to stomp you (while young, they may be the most competitive players, lol). At the end of the day its all about everyone having fun and a good experience win or lose.

That said, maneuver cards no way add or detract to the fun anyone has in the game. By the time I hand the bloody card over, I could have told them the moves the ship makes, lol.


I completely agree that it would be a complete jerk move to not show/tell someone your possible movements. The question arose as to whether or not it's a must during competitive play. I say, yes of course.

I'd be careful about blanket statements, though. My group--by habit, I guess--also places the maneuver cards on the table with all the other cards. We hand them back and forth often. So, "no one ever asks about them" isn't true for me and others as well, I'm sure.


Here's an interesting question in return:

Do you guys play pure or mixed faction?

I could see guys at pure faction shops having more difficulty with how ships work since they only use 1 set. We play mixed factions so everyone gets a hand at the gamut of ships in quite quick order and knows how they move.


It varies. I prefer pure, but I have no preference in faction, so I've played all ships, most a number of times. We've played a bunch of mixed too. The maneuver cards have always been a part of the play area for us, so it's rather normal for them to be handled.

There's a bit of gamesmanship (friendly of course) also. Consider this: I want to know if your ship can come-about. I can,

(1) I can ask to see your card, then set my dial;
(2) I can ask "Can that sucker come-about?" then set my dial;
(3) I can set my dial, ask "Can that pile of space-junk come about?" And the reset my dial based on your answer;
(4) et cetera.

Of course, I can ask because I don't know the answer, or I know the answer and am asking to make you consider why I'm asking.

Friendly gamesmanship.


My third round way back in OP3 hinged on a moment like this. I had two Federation ships (Miranda and Ent-D I believe) and my opponent asked me if both my ships were capable of reverse maneuvers and what they were. I handed him my Maneuver Cards (which I always have out in tournaments, btw), and we had a jolly old time re-enacting the Iocaine Powder scene from Princess Bride as I mused aloud about changing my maneuver in response to his question.

I ended up losing that game, though I think that had more to do with the fact that he was the first guy I ever heard of who combined Weyoun and Varel, a combo I didn't adapt to quickly enough (I still won the event having captured the planet in Rounds 1 & 2).

Maneuver Cards are implicitly supposed to be on the table, and they can help keep a game friendly and fair. I also happen to think they look cool.

The fact that somebody actually felt the need to devote an entire thread to a complaint about objects they get for free in their ship packs, that probably barely weigh a gram apiece and take up negligible physical space--boggles my mind.
 
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Aaron Percival
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A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
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dond80 wrote:
Really? C'mon. gulp


Not sure if that was directed at my post, or not...

All's fair in Love and War.

Also, I stress that I play with a group of friends in casual play. Gamesmanship aside, there's a lot of calling into question one's masculinity, banter, and drinking beer. Regular 30 somethings away from their significant others guy stuff...

This is a plastic space-toy game, after all.
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