Good evening. Question about control, liberation, supply... all in one^_^
Globarl war. JA42
Balctic are russian. During a horrible '42 Barbarrosa a GE MOT makes a path through Estonia up to Talin and then goes towards Novgorod.
Path includes 2445,2446,2546,2547 and 2347.
Allies (me) manages to move a RU MTN through this path, so all the Estonia hexes are again russian except 2445.
Short after, US controls Fredrikshaven and has an HQ in Archangel. Thus, a MAR disembarks in Talin.
The following impulse, after some GE approaches, the turn ends (finally!!, i must say)
Some questions appeared...
1.- Can Estonia be liberated? I guess no, since RU is in the same side as US
2.- Is Tallin RU or US controlled? I would say RU but, again, not sure
3.- Can RU MTN trace to Tallin and get supply? Can US? Have no answer for that. Maybe yes for the second since it is a coastal, no matter Tallin be RU or US controlled.
4.- Would the US MAR have been able to disembark without an US HQ in Russia? I guess no
Well. I think that's all. Thanks in advance.
1. Can Estonia be liberated? As you have said, the US cannot liberate from the USSR since they are on the same side. However, Germany can!
You say that the Baltics 'are Russian'. In WIFFE terms, however, we usually care about their status. If the Baltics were taken pursuant to the Nazi-Soviet Pact, then they are conquered by the USSR.
The rule on this:
19.5.2 Baltic States
The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) during any Allied land movement step after it has exercised its rights to eastern Poland. You can only exercise your rights over those states that are neutral.
You exercise those rights by moving a land unit into any hex of the Baltic States.
Once you exercise those rights, the Baltic States are considered immediately conquered by the Soviet Union (without the Baltic States being aligned or its units set up).
Note that if Germany DoW’s Estonia, it has to align to an active major power so it couldn’t align with the USSR unless it was at war with somebody. In theory, Estonia could be aligned to the USSR if:
1. The USSR didn’t exercise it pact rights;
2. Germany DoW’s it;
3. The USSR was active (presumably at war with Japan)
Note that a DoW in this case allows the USSR to break the pact.
Now, let’s look at Liberation:
Conquered minor countries, major powers and Commonwealth home countries (and France after a Vichy government is installed) may not be conquered. Instead, the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that conquered it.
The definition of a side is (glossary)
Side [there are two sides in World in Flames, the Axis and the Allies]
So if Estonia is taken by the USSR by using its pact rights, Estonia is conquered by the USSR, and can be liberated by a power on the other side. It can therefore be liberated by Germany (or theoretically Italy or Japan) but not by the US since they are on the same side.
If Estonia aligned to the USSR by a DoW by Germany, then it can be conquered by Germany and therefore liberated by the US or the USSR; but this would happen only if Estonia is formally conquered by Germany and passes control as defined in the conquest step. That set of facts didn’t appear to occur here.
2. Is Tallinn US or Soviet controlled?
It is Soviet controlled but note that if:
The German unit went into Tallinn, and
The US unit went into Tallinn before a Soviet unit did, the US would control it.
In this case, a German unit went into Tallinn, then a Soviet unit, and then a US unit.
Here we go to Changing Control, under rule 2.5:
Control of a hex changes when:
ï an enemy land unit (except for partisans ~ see 13.1, and supply units ~ see 22.4.10) enters it (the major power entering with the most factors if more than one); or
ï an island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1) or liberated (see 13.7.5); or
ï France is declared Vichy (see 17.); or
ï it is a communist Chinese-controlled city entered by a nationalist Chinese land unit or vice versa; or
ï during the liberation step you return control to the original owner (see 13.7.5, reversion).
We concentrate on the first condition. When the German unit entered Tallinn, control passed to it because it was an enemy land unit; the Soviet unit entering later was an enemy land unit to the Germans so the Soviets controlled it. Note that there is no provision of control to pass when an allied unit enters the hex; so the US unit entering does not change control to the US.
3. Can a US or Soviet unit trace supply through Tallinn?
The key rules here are in 2.4.2:
Limits on supply paths
You can’t trace any supply path:
ï into an enemy ZOC (unless the hex contains a friendly land unit); or
ï into a hex controlled by another major power unless it agrees; or
ï into a hex controlled by a neutral country (exception: Vichy territory ~ see 17.4 and Sweden ~ see 19.7); or
ï across an alpine hexside; or
ï across a lake hexside (except when frozen); or
ï across an all sea hexside that isn’t a straits hexside (except as an overseas supply path); or
ï for any Soviet unit, into a hex controlled by any other Allied major power (and vice versa) unless the USSR is at war with Germany.
In our fact pattern, Tallinn controlled by the USSR so obviously can trace through it. As you said if the US unit is in Tallinn, it can trace supply through the Baltic. But if it did need to trace supply through a Soviet hex, we have the second condition and the last condition above:
into a hex controlled by another major power unless it agrees; or
for any Soviet unit, into a hex controlled by any other Allied major power (and vice versa) unless the USSR is at war with Germany.
So theoretically the US can trace supply through a Soviet hex with their permission, or the other way, because the USSR is at war with Germany.
4. Would the US Mar be able to disembark without the HQ in Russia?
They would because Foreign Troop Commitment doesn’t apply to hexes in conquered minors.
The key rules here are in 11.11.5:
11.11.5 Active major powers
You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into any hex controlled by:
ï that major power and its aligned minors; or
ï another active major power on the same side (or its controlled minor countries); or
ï a major power or minor country it is at war with.
There are some exceptions:
ï units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2); and
ï minor country units can’t enter a hex controlled by another minor country aligned with their side unless they satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules.
ï units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner.
The US unit is (presumably) a unit controlled by an active major power. Therefore it can move into a hex controlled by another active major power (second condition).
We look to see if the exceptions apply:
The first condition applies to the HOME COUTNRY of a non- cooperating major power on the same side – Estonia is a conquered minor, not a home country, so the foreign troop commitment rules don’t apply. However, they do need Soviet permission (last condition).
If the marine wanted to enter Russia proper, it would both need permission and would have to satisfy foreign troop commitment and would need an HQ in the country.
- Last edited Fri May 16, 2014 10:25 pm (Total Number of Edits: 4)
- Posted Fri May 16, 2014 10:20 pm
Thank you very, very much.
Crystal clear. Never gone so far in the game and these things drive me mad.
Rules explanation is all good but...
In the text you talk of a US MAR but the image shows a US PARA. It makes no difference to the rules applying but it's best not to be confused about which is which.
On a strategic point, both PARA and MAR make expensive infantry, a US INF, GAR or MIL could do the same or better job at a fraction of the cost and allow the MAR (with a TRS) or PARA (with an ATR) to be doing something else, even if only making the Axis worry about where they could go.
You know, always in a hurry: MAR per PAR, not specify how RU has Balctic... my fault for the next 8 years (more or less)
Strategically I have lots to learn about (usually by having Japan conquered in '44)
In this case, I thought some of the opponent's units were OoS, but there were things I did not see. I will tell you how far this MAR will be pull out