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Subject: more questions rss

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Kenneth Lury
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Still working on starting Seoul Train.

Where do I set up the DPRK airborne, DPRK sniper and DPRK light infantry ?

Reinforcements: I cannot find the 1st BCT/2nd ID (US) counters. I am looking at the light green group for an infantry counter with one X (first US Army Brigade Team of the second infantry division) Is that correct ?

"Place the second ID helicopters in any friendly airfield or airbase)- I assume this means US second infantry division helicopters that are designated AH-64 and have a hex number on them. Is this correct ?

As always, thanks in advance.

As an aside, I have mentioned in many older posts re rule books. I think you should use the old Hallicrafter electronics method of presenting the scattered pieces of a radio or whatever electronic device is to be made (game)to a total "virgin" with the assembly instructions (rulebook), have the rulebook writer sit next to that person and every time the virgin hesitates or has a question, rewrite that part of the rulebook so they understand it.
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Mitchell Land
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radsailor wrote:
Still working on starting Seoul Train.

Where do I set up the DPRK airborne, DPRK sniper and DPRK light infantry ?


Anywhere in the DPRK.

Quote:

Reinforcements: I cannot find the 1st BCT/2nd ID (US) counters. I am looking at the light green group for an infantry counter with one X (first US Army Brigade Team of the second infantry division) Is that correct ?


Yes, it should be "1/2" in the upper left and have "Taegu" in the upper right.

Quote:
"Place the second ID helicopters in any friendly airfield or airbase)- I assume this means US second infantry division helicopters that are designated AH-64 and have a hex number on them. Is this correct ?


Yes, and they have a "/2" colored in the same Formation color as the rest of the 2nd ID.

Quote:

As always, thanks in advance.

As an aside, I have mentioned in many older posts re rule books. I think you should use the old Hallicrafter electronics method of presenting the scattered pieces of a radio or whatever electronic device is to be made (game)to a total "virgin" with the assembly instructions (rulebook), have the rulebook writer sit next to that person and every time the virgin hesitates or has a question, rewrite that part of the rulebook so they understand it.


Interesting idea. I haven't heard of that before.

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Martin Gallo
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I tried that once with a technical manual I was helping to write (I did 75% of the text and a team of four were doing the illustrations and a team of three were handling the rest of the text - that in and of itself was an "interesting" project).

What we found was that every person that read the material had a different interpretation of what had been written and a different view of what was "right". We only had 15 "volunteers" and so did not have enough for a "consensus".

It is an interesting experiment and I learned a LOT about how other people read things. In the end, I got to be the final arbiter for most of the interpretations (and I learned a LOT from that about how managers pick and choose their pet projects) and have tried to carry that knowledge forward in my editing "career" (now over). Having a "peer review" that includes a few outsiders is a great idea, but you have to apply the suggestions carefully.

The secret to a well written set of rules seems to be adhering to a policy of explaining what CAN be done and occasionally nudging people by explaining what cannot be done. Including an explanation or example of a complicated procedure is most beneficial. Also, no set of rules will be perfect no matter how much effort is put in to them - BUT not putting a lot of effort usually results in poorly written rules. My recollection of the NWK rules is that they are pretty good.
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Kenneth Lury
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finally got started
I placed one of the rok helicopters in an airfield by itself in the initial setup.
during the first movement phase, I moved DPRK into the airfield (not airbase) hex and placed an occupied marker. I may have fudged the rule about not moving East South of the DMZ. I started out moving the DPRK beyond the East boundary and was working my way back to the center when I just happened to pass into the airfield hex.

Did I perform an illegal move and if not, what would happen to the helicopter ?

Thanks
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Gordon G
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radsailor wrote:
I placed one of the rok helicopters in an airfield by itself in the initial setup.
during the first movement phase, I moved DPRK into the airfield (not airbase) hex and placed an occupied marker. I may have fudged the rule about not moving East South of the DMZ. I started out moving the DPRK beyond the East boundary and was working my way back to the center when I just happened to pass into the airfield hex.

Did I perform an illegal move and if not, what would happen to the helicopter ?

Thanks


Are you referring to the Airfield at hex 3018? If so, I don't see how you could have advanced onto that airfield hex legally with a regular unit.

Scenario rules prevent any movement east of the hex N30xx south of the DMZ. So there is no way you could have come in from the east of the airfield since the airfield lies on the edge of the playable area.

In addition the US 5th ID, exerts a ZOC into the six hexes surrounding it (Standard rules para 8.2) and would essentially stop any regular unit movement the DPRK makes towards that airfield unless you come down hexline N32xx (even further outside the play area).

The only feasible way to get onto that airfield would be by an airmobile movement or by using Light Infantry through hex 2917 since Light Infantry isn't affected by enemy ZOCs in non-flat terrain (GSR para 3.1.1). However, since you need to cross a river +1MP, through a marsh +2MP and into highland terrain +2MP, it would cost you 5MP to get to that airfield and there is no Light Infantry unit setup within 5MP of the airfield initially.

To answer the second part of your question, what would happen to the helicopters, if you did move onto the airfield hex, the answer is nothing right away. Until the airfield is "occupied" at the end of the Reorganization phase (Standard rules para 8.4 and SOP), they can remain in the hex with the DPRK units. After the hex is "occupied" at the end of the Reorganization phase, they need to roll on the "Loss of Airbase/Airfield" chart (Standard rules para 6.5.4).

One final note, you do not place an "occupied marker" when you move onto an airfield hex. A control marker is placed on a hex at the end of the reorganization phase (Standard rules para 8.4 and Standard Game SOP).
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Kenneth Lury
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It was the airfield in 3218 and based on what you said above, I guess I cheated a bit. I tried to get East above the DMZ so I could circle back towards the center when I got South of the DMZ as the SSR says a unit can start outside the boundary and work its way in.

At least I finally got the scenario started and the first few (or more) games are to get a grasp of the rules.
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Gordon G
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radsailor wrote:
It was the airfield in 3218 and based on what you said above, I guess I cheated a bit. I tried to get East above the DMZ so I could circle back towards the center when I got South of the DMZ as the SSR says a unit can start outside the boundary and work its way in.

At least I finally got the scenario started and the first few (or more) games are to get a grasp of the rules.


One thing to remember with the first three scenarios is that you're only seeing the war in one small area. A wider war is raging across the entire DMZ but the focus of these scenarios is only on one portion of it. I'll let the designers speak for themselves, but I'm sure this was done to provide a smaller scale and smaller counter set to aid new players as an introduction.

In that case, your DPRK swing to the east would have run into the defending ROK units to the east which are notional in this scenario (see scenario 2 for those).

Again, I'll defer to Mitchell, but I think the SSR which allows for units which start the scenario outside the play area to move into it are for the helo units and the 1st BCT/2ID which starts in N3121 (Hanam).

You're asking good questions so keep it up. After you get a few turns under your belt, the rules will start to come together.
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Mitchell Land
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Excellent answer, Gordo (probably better than I could have done myself).

Quote:
Play Area: Use only the North map. No movement is allowed
east of N30xx, or, west of N27xx south of the DMZ.


This should be read as two parts: no movement east of N30xx and no movement west of N27xx when south of the DMZ.

The idea is to constrain the battlefield to a manageable portion.

Also don't forget that the Fortifications prevent all road movement unless friendly-controlled (which, as Gordo pointed out) doesn't happen until the end of the turn. So, you have to pay terrain costs, +1 for the DMZ hex, to enter those DMZ Fortifications. (Remember, also, that DMZ hexes are a modifier for Fortification hexes.)



Edit: Grammar.
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Mitchell Land
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GordoMG wrote:


Again, I'll defer to Mitchell, but I think the SSR which allows for units which start the scenario outside the play area to move into it are for the helo units and the 1st BCT/2ID which starts in N3121 (Hanam).

You're asking good questions so keep it up. After you get a few turns under your belt, the rules will start to come together.


In general, it's simply to constrain the battle area but allow units to enter the area if they start or reinforce from outside the area.

I also agree with the asking of questions. Keep 'em coming!
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Kenneth Lury
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You don't have to worry about my keeping the questions coming.
The game seems to have many cool mechanisms which will make it very interesting to play. When I get a new game, I want to jump in and get as much out of it as possible.
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Xesqui BCN
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the best help to start is downloading the AAR Seoul Train in the files section (write by Mitchell)
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Kenneth Lury
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Re: more questions Scenario East Coast Highway
Just finished (sort of ) turn 1 of Seoul Train . Lots of movement and combat phases in the initiative turns. :

Looking ahead to East Coast Highway:
GT1 Reinforcement- 1st marine division ROK- what does this counter look like ?
Re: Victory Conditions: Is Yangyang the same as Yongyang(hex 3515) because I cannot find Yangyang.


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Mitchell Land
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radsailor wrote:
Just finished (sort of ) turn 1 of Seoul Train . Lots of movement and combat phases in the initiative turns. :

Looking ahead to East Coast Highway:
GT1 Reinforcement- 1st marine division ROK- what does this counter look like ?
Re: Victory Conditions: Is Yangyang the same as Yongyang(hex 3515) because I cannot find Yangyang.




1st ROK Marines are a light blue counter (like the other ROC units) with an anchor symbol. It's labeled "1/2A" and has a green Formation symbol.

I believe that's Gangneung. Make sure you have the latest Game Specific Rules (GSR) from the support site.
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Kenneth Lury
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I think Gangneung is an alernative victory objective.
I have downloaded, printed, cut and pasted all of the changes into the original rule books.
Of course, I might have missed something !
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Mitchell Land
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radsailor wrote:
I think Gangneung is an alernative victory objective.
I have downloaded, printed, cut and pasted all of the changes into the original rule books.
Of course, I might have missed something !


Here are the VC for East Coast Highway

Victory Conditions:

Major DPRK Victory: Control Chuncheon and Gang-neung.
Minor DPRK Victory: Control either Chuncheon or Gang-neung.
Draw: If neither side meets a victory condition OR both sides meet their Minor Victory Condition.
Minor ROK Victory: Control Yang-gu.
Major ROK Victory: Control Chuncheon and Gang-neung.

Destruction of all ROK ground units shifts Victory level up one. ROK control of a hex in the DPRK shifts Victory level one in ROK favor.
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Kenneth Lury
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thanks for the victory conditions. I must have missed that when I was updating to the most recent rules.
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