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Legendary: Paint the Town Red» Forums » Rules

Subject: Reignfire vs. Mysterio rss

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Dennis Morin
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Reignfire's text pretty much says if Reignfire escapes, he becomes a Master Strike. And Mysterio shuffles Master Strikes into his tactics. So if you defeat Mysterio, and you draw a Master Strike, it goes in your victory pile as a 6 point tactic card that could possibly go back into Mysterio's tactic deck if another Master Strike is drawn from the villain deck. But what if you draw a Reignfire card from the tactic deck, does he count as a 6 VP Master Strike in your victory pile or does he revert back to his 4 point self?
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Jacovis
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wookieebate wrote:
Reignfire's text pretty much says if Reignfire escapes, he becomes a Master Strike. And Mysterio shuffles Master Strikes into his tactics. So if you defeat Mysterio, and you draw a Master Strike, it goes in your victory pile as a 6 point tactic card that could possibly go back into Mysterio's tactic deck if another Master Strike is drawn from the villain deck. But what if you draw a Reignfire card from the tactic deck, does he count as a 6 VP Master Strike in your victory pile or does he revert back to his 4 point self?


Just to clarify, you say that Reignfire "could possibly go back into Mysterio's tactic deck if another Master Strike is drawn from the villain deck." This is not true. If a Master Strike is drawn from the Villain Deck, that particular Master Strike becomes a Mastermind Tactic. It doesn't affect any other card besides itself.

However, if the Master of Illusions Tactic is defeated and it isn't the last Tactic in the Tactic Deck, then each player must put a Mastermind Tactic back into the Tactic Deck, which could place Reignfire/Master Strikes back into the Tactic Deck.

I just wanted to clarify that before answering your question in case it was being played incorrectly.

If a Master Strike goes off with Mysterio it says:

Quote:
Shuffle this Master Strike into Mysterio's face down Mastermind Tactics. That card becomes a Mastermind Tactic worth 6[VP].


So, once Reignfire becomes a Master Strike by escaping, he immediately becomes a Mastermind Tactic shuffled into Mysterio's Tactic Deck with no text and worth 6[VP].

From that point on, that Reignfire card is a blank Mastermind Tactic worth 6 VP.

UNLESS that card is somehow (theoretically) shuffled back into the Villain deck, at which point he becomes a Villain again. This applies to Mystique as well (but as a Scheme Twist). (NOTE: Designer commented on this before, basically in the Villain deck there is no way to keep track of cards that might have changed, so they revert back to their printed text. In the case of the Tactics deck there are only ever Tactics in there, so there is no confusion about whether the Reignfire in that deck is a Tactic or a Villain, ergo he stays a Tactic.)

The only time you should have an issue with putting Reignfire back into the Tactics deck is if Master of Illusions Tactic is defeated (not when a Master Strike goes off) (as I stated above) and someone picks Reignfire to go back into the Tactics deck, in which case he would remain a 6[VP] blank Mastermind Tactic card just like all the Master Strikes in peoples' VP piles remain 6[VP] blank Mastermind Tactic cards.

I keep my Mastermind Tactics, Bystanders, and Villains in three stacks anyway for my own benefit so I don't have trouble in this instance, but in case you have both a defeated Reignfire and the Mastermind Tactic Reignfire in your VP stack make sure you keep them separate.

Hope this helps, cheers!
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Mark Dennison
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Jacovis wrote:
wookieebate wrote:
Reignfire's text pretty much says if Reignfire escapes, he becomes a Master Strike. And Mysterio shuffles Master Strikes into his tactics. So if you defeat Mysterio, and you draw a Master Strike, it goes in your victory pile as a 6 point tactic card that could possibly go back into Mysterio's tactic deck if another Master Strike is drawn from the villain deck. But what if you draw a Reignfire card from the tactic deck, does he count as a 6 VP Master Strike in your victory pile or does he revert back to his 4 point self?


Just to clarify, you say that Reignfire "could possibly go back into Mysterio's tactic deck if another Master Strike is drawn from the villain deck." This is not true. If a Master Strike is drawn from the Villain Deck, that particular Master Strike becomes a Mastermind Tactic. It doesn't affect any other card besides itself.

However, if the Master of Illusions Tactic is defeated and it isn't the last Tactic in the Tactic Deck, then each player must put a Mastermind Tactic back into the Tactic Deck, which could place Reignfire/Master Strikes back into the Tactic Deck.

I just wanted to clarify that before answering your question in case it was being played incorrectly.

If a Master Strike goes off with Mysterio it says:

Quote:
Shuffle this Master Strike into Mysterio's face down Mastermind Tactics. That card becomes a Mastermind Tactic worth 6[VP].


So, once Reignfire becomes a Master Strike by escaping, he immediately becomes a Mastermind Tactic shuffled into Mysterio's Tactic Deck with no text and worth 6[VP].

From that point on, that Reignfire card is a blank Mastermind Tactic worth 6 VP.

UNLESS that card is somehow (theoretically) shuffled back into the Villain deck, at which point he becomes a Villain again. This applies to Mystique as well (but as a Scheme Twist). (NOTE: Designer commented on this before, basically in the Villain deck there is no way to keep track of cards that might have changed, so they revert back to their printed text. In the case of the Tactics deck there are only ever Tactics in there, so there is no confusion about whether the Reignfire in that deck is a Tactic or a Villain, ergo he stays a Tactic.)

The only time you should have an issue with putting Reignfire back into the Tactics deck is if Master of Illusions Tactic is defeated (not when a Master Strike goes off) (as I stated above) and someone picks Reignfire to go back into the Tactics deck, in which case he would remain a 6[VP] blank Mastermind Tactic card just like all the Master Strikes in peoples' VP piles remain 6[VP] blank Mastermind Tactic cards.

I keep my Mastermind Tactics, Bystanders, and Villains in three stacks anyway for my own benefit so I don't have trouble in this instance, but in case you have both a defeated Reignfire and the Mastermind Tactic Reignfire in your VP stack make sure you keep them separate.

Hope this helps, cheers!


I think I disagree with you on this one. I think that, after he has become a tactic, and he is drawn after you hit the Mastermind, he goes into your victory pile and loses his Mastermind Tactic status. Cards have no memory, so he would just be a normal villain in your victory pile.

I think we need Devon to comment in on this one.
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Jacovis
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DarthofZA wrote:
Jacovis wrote:
wookieebate wrote:
Reignfire's text pretty much says if Reignfire escapes, he becomes a Master Strike. And Mysterio shuffles Master Strikes into his tactics. So if you defeat Mysterio, and you draw a Master Strike, it goes in your victory pile as a 6 point tactic card that could possibly go back into Mysterio's tactic deck if another Master Strike is drawn from the villain deck. But what if you draw a Reignfire card from the tactic deck, does he count as a 6 VP Master Strike in your victory pile or does he revert back to his 4 point self?


Just to clarify, you say that Reignfire "could possibly go back into Mysterio's tactic deck if another Master Strike is drawn from the villain deck." This is not true. If a Master Strike is drawn from the Villain Deck, that particular Master Strike becomes a Mastermind Tactic. It doesn't affect any other card besides itself.

However, if the Master of Illusions Tactic is defeated and it isn't the last Tactic in the Tactic Deck, then each player must put a Mastermind Tactic back into the Tactic Deck, which could place Reignfire/Master Strikes back into the Tactic Deck.

I just wanted to clarify that before answering your question in case it was being played incorrectly.

If a Master Strike goes off with Mysterio it says:

Quote:
Shuffle this Master Strike into Mysterio's face down Mastermind Tactics. That card becomes a Mastermind Tactic worth 6[VP].


So, once Reignfire becomes a Master Strike by escaping, he immediately becomes a Mastermind Tactic shuffled into Mysterio's Tactic Deck with no text and worth 6[VP].

From that point on, that Reignfire card is a blank Mastermind Tactic worth 6 VP.

UNLESS that card is somehow (theoretically) shuffled back into the Villain deck, at which point he becomes a Villain again. This applies to Mystique as well (but as a Scheme Twist). (NOTE: Designer commented on this before, basically in the Villain deck there is no way to keep track of cards that might have changed, so they revert back to their printed text. In the case of the Tactics deck there are only ever Tactics in there, so there is no confusion about whether the Reignfire in that deck is a Tactic or a Villain, ergo he stays a Tactic.)

The only time you should have an issue with putting Reignfire back into the Tactics deck is if Master of Illusions Tactic is defeated (not when a Master Strike goes off) (as I stated above) and someone picks Reignfire to go back into the Tactics deck, in which case he would remain a 6[VP] blank Mastermind Tactic card just like all the Master Strikes in peoples' VP piles remain 6[VP] blank Mastermind Tactic cards.

I keep my Mastermind Tactics, Bystanders, and Villains in three stacks anyway for my own benefit so I don't have trouble in this instance, but in case you have both a defeated Reignfire and the Mastermind Tactic Reignfire in your VP stack make sure you keep them separate.

Hope this helps, cheers!


I think I disagree with you on this one. I think that, after he has become a tactic, and he is drawn after you hit the Mastermind, he goes into your victory pile and loses his Mastermind Tactic status. Cards have no memory, so he would just be a normal villain in your victory pile.

I think we need Devon to comment in on this one.


Fair enough, and I agree I'd like Devin to step in.

The issue is whether this behaves like Bystanders in the Killbot Scheme or if they stick to the ruling that reign fire and mystique become their respective card types until placed back into the villain deck. Rulings on rulings require rulings

ETA: I originally went with that interpretation Za, but considering the other rulings on reign fire and mystique made me reconsider because the idea that cards have no memory would also apply if reign fire became a tactic in the tactic deck, in which case what do you do with a Villain in the Tactic deck, since cards don't have memory? This particular case seems to be a slippery slope on that argument, hence my decision to go the other way.

Cheers!
 
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Knobbly Savage
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My 2 cents: I would say that Reignfire reverts back to being a Villain as soon as he hits the Victory Pile (and thus cannot be put back into the Tactics pile). This also means that at the end of the game, he is only worth 4 points, not 6.

This is because there is the possibility of confusion - if you already have a defeated Reignfire in your VP, then you have to mark which was a Villain and which was a Tactic, which you did by keeping them separate, all of Devin's rulings up till now have tried to avoid the necessity of doing this (as you said, the Killbot-ruling). The reason the other Master Strikes do not revert back is because there is no other way for them to get into the VP, so there are no memory issues. This is the same reason Reignfire doesn't revert within the Tactics Deck: There is no other way for him to wind up there other than being a Tactic, so when you draw him, he cannot be anything but a Tactic.

Again, just my take
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Jacovis
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KnobblySavage wrote:
My 2 cents: I would say that Reignfire reverts back to being a Villain as soon as he hits the Victory Pile (and thus cannot be put back into the Tactics pile). This also means that at the end of the game, he is only worth 4 points, not 6.

This is because there is the possibility of confusion - if you already have a defeated Reignfire in your VP, then you have to mark which was a Villain and which was a Tactic, which you did by keeping them separate, all of Devin's rulings up till now have tried to avoid the necessity of doing this (as you said, the Killbot-ruling). The reason the other Master Strikes do not revert back is because there is no other way for them to get into the VP, so there are no memory issues. This is the same reason Reignfire doesn't revert within the Tactics Deck: There is no other way for him to wind up there other than being a Tactic, so when you draw him, he cannot be anything but a Tactic.

Again, just my take


Yeah, I agree in principle, but the lack of any word from DL in almost two months leaves me unsure anymore.
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Jacovis
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KnobblySavage wrote:
My 2 cents: I would say that Reignfire reverts back to being a Villain as soon as he hits the Victory Pile (and thus cannot be put back into the Tactics pile). This also means that at the end of the game, he is only worth 4 points, not 6.

This is because there is the possibility of confusion - if you already have a defeated Reignfire in your VP, then you have to mark which was a Villain and which was a Tactic, which you did by keeping them separate, all of Devin's rulings up till now have tried to avoid the necessity of doing this (as you said, the Killbot-ruling). The reason the other Master Strikes do not revert back is because there is no other way for them to get into the VP, so there are no memory issues. This is the same reason Reignfire doesn't revert within the Tactics Deck: There is no other way for him to wind up there other than being a Tactic, so when you draw him, he cannot be anything but a Tactic.

Again, just my take


The more I think about this (after getting sleep... what was I doing up at 2 AM? I have no idea...) the more I agree with you Knobbly.

I still think it's in one of the ever-expanding grey areas developing in Legendary's card interactions across sets since the only reason the Master Strikes remain Tactics worth 6 VP according to anything written down in the rules or otherwise is because Mysterio's card text says so, not because they have no other way to get into the VP pile. This reinforces your core argument that Reignfire becomes himself again in the VP pile, though, since there is no text stating that Reignfire remains a Master Strike (a la Goblin Queen Jean Grey cards, for example) though I feel that a ruling is definitely in order just to avoid confusion later.

I think that the answer that you and ZA stated, that the simplest way to do it without memory issues is to just put Reignfire into the VP pile and he reverts to his original form, a 4 VP Villain, makes the most sense and is the most consistent with other rulings and retract my argument from my sleep-deprived brain last night/this morning.
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Darth Ed
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KnobblySavage wrote:
My 2 cents: I would say that Reignfire reverts back to being a Villain as soon as he hits the Victory Pile (and thus cannot be put back into the Tactics pile). This also means that at the end of the game, he is only worth 4 points, not 6.

I concur with this interpretation. The Killbot/Bystander ruling is what convinces me.
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