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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » General

Subject: 8+ pages FAQ? And growing rapidly... rss

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Geo
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Already 8+ pages FAQ/errata and there are many more expansions to come in the near future!

Why's that? Clearly an indication that not much though or playtesting was done. At the current release rate, expect the FAQ to grow quickly to many more pages... Almost every card has errata or needs explanation how to play against other cards.

How can you enjoy the game when you constantly have to refer to the FAQ with almost every card you use?

In contrast, the X-Wing has errata/FAQ for only 5 cards! Obviously FFG takes more time to playtest their game, that's why their releases are at a slower rate.

It's unfortunate that Attack Wing was released by WizKids who will eventually ruin the game and not FFG...

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Matthew Humphreys
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There are more ships / cards / upgrades / combinations of ships and cards in Attack Wing.
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Brad Whiteman
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GrandHarrier wrote:
There are more ships / cards / upgrades / combinations of ships and cards in Attack Wing.


And most of their card abilities are nothing special that would require any sort of ruling. Compare that to some of the crazier cards in Attack Wing. And add into it that Attack Wing has quite a few FAQ questions that are really not needed on there, but added because someone asked.
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Erin OConnor
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you must have missed the FFG official X-Wing forums.
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I wouldn't say that they weren't playtested. I think that they may need to open up their playtesting group a bit more, as it appears that the group testing it is very in sync with the designer's intentions. If a more diverse group tested, they'd begin to get more of these questions, and might be able to avoid some of the questions.

My opinion is STAW needs to be more consistent in the terminology being used on the cards, which would likely cut down on future FAQ size.

As to the previous point of there being less cards than X-Wing, hence the larger FAQ, I'd point out that the questions and rulings from the first release of STAW (Wave 0) alone had already outpaced the X-Wing game FAQ.

Also, the X-Wing faq is 11 pages - granted, it cover new rules added over the expansions, and more than a fair amount of artwork. But it only FAQs 7 cards.
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Is it just me or have these boards in the last few weeks seemed to have gotten a lot harsher on the game?

I agree that Attack Wing could have used a tighter terminology in it, but like others have said it does have more options then X-Wing. Along with all the rules from resources, the OPs and DS9 do add a bunch to the FAQ that X-Wing doesn't have to deal with.

Update: Please note this was in no way meant as a statement on anyone posting. I just reread my post and realized it could have come off that way.
 
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Welcome to a Wizkids Game. You must have never seen the 300+ page players guide/errata from Heroclix?

Most of the problem is that the game has so many ships with so many different cards that can be interchanged that special circumstances keep turning up, where X-Wing only has a handful of expansions, and very few (if any) of the upgrades can be used on anything but the ships they come with.

Also a large section of the Attack Wing FaQ is dedicated to OP and Scenario questions. With each OP month event having its own special rules and every ship expansion coming with its own scenario, there are a lot of special rules and situations that never occur in X-Wing's place 5 asteroids type scenarios...
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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I really enjoy Attack Wing, but it seems that every time I play with a new group at the different OPs in my area, everyone plays the same things just a little differently. Learning and unlearning the same card interactions and effects between groups as you "play along to get along" gets old. And the language on the cards usually doesn't help.
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C. E. Freeman
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GeoMan wrote:
Already 8+ pages FAQ/errata and there are many more expansions to come in the near future!

Why's that? Clearly an indication that not much though or playtesting was done. At the current release rate, expect the FAQ to grow quickly to many more pages... Almost every card has errata or needs explanation how to play against other cards.

How can you enjoy the game when you constantly have to refer to the FAQ with almost every card you use?

In contrast, the X-Wing has errata/FAQ for only 5 cards! Obviously FFG takes more time to playtest their game, that's why their releases are at a slower rate.

It's unfortunate that Attack Wing was released by WizKids who will eventually ruin the game and not FFG...

shake



My, aren't you playing it loose with the facts.

There are 6 cards with errata not 5.

You failed to mention the 44 cards in the X-wing FAQ that needed further clarification. The breakdown is as follows.

5 - Damage cards
16 - Ship cards
23 - Upgrade cards

You also failed to mention the Rules Question section in the FFG X-Wing forums, which as of this writing has 1,125 topics with 10,613 replies. That is a lot of questions and debate for such clear set of rules, don't ya think?

The bottom line is that both games have a lot of complex interactions between cards. I frequently check the FAQ and Rules Forums of both games. I don't have a problem with this. Your post is so biased that it is almost like you have an axe to grind.shake
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Chris Phillips
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Or a troll
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cminion wrote:
Or a troll


If that's the case, my bad for feeding him.
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Will Sanchez
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Remember when you see a troll, you click the little [X] button at the bottom left of the post.

also:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support...

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I will say this: In my ~20 years of gaming across a huge variety of games, I will say ST:AW is not the worst when it comes to clarity, consistency, and precision. LOST: The Game will still hold that ignoble honor in my opinion.





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RogueThirteen wrote:
I will say this: In my ~20 years of gaming across a huge variety of games, I will say ST:AW is not the worst when it comes to clarity, consistency, and precision. LOST: The Game will still hold that ignoble honor in my opinion.







An ironic name?
 
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I lost the game!
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Sodoff Baldrick
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A lot of the chaff could have been cut out if there was more consistent wording. How much better would it have been if Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack all had the same text. Same thing with Donatra, Gowron and Martok.

If we could go back I think it would have been better to have a set of universal abilities listed in the rule book and just put the ability name on the cards. Kinda how magic works, when you see trample everyone knows what it means. So then Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack would just have to say "Counter Attack" and you go to the rule book for how the ability works.

But it's too late for that now, maybe in Attack Wing 2.0
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Mr S Baldrick wrote:
A lot of the chaff could have been cut out if there was more consistent wording. How much better would it have been if Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack all had the same text. Same thing with Donatra, Gowron and Martok.

If we could go back I think it would have been better to have a set of universal abilities listed in the rule book and just put the ability name on the cards. Kinda how magic works, when you see trample everyone knows what it means. So then Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack would just have to say "Counter Attack" and you go to the rule book for how the ability works.

But it's too late for that now, maybe in Attack Wing 2.0

I agree that this game suffers from inconsistent wording, but the examples you give are worded directly because all do different things. Personally, I like the flavor that the similar-but-not-quite-the-same abilities of these cards give the game. The biggest problem that I see other than clarity and consistency in card text is out-of-sequence abilities such as Gelnon who provides an attack outside the attack phase. Those tend to cause unanticipated interactions when combined with other abilities and often need extensive classification.
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Mr S Baldrick wrote:
A lot of the chaff could have been cut out if there was more consistent wording. How much better would it have been if Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack all had the same text. Same thing with Donatra, Gowron and Martok.

If we could go back I think it would have been better to have a set of universal abilities listed in the rule book and just put the ability name on the cards. Kinda how magic works, when you see trample everyone knows what it means. So then Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack would just have to say "Counter Attack" and you go to the rule book for how the ability works.

But it's too late for that now, maybe in Attack Wing 2.0


Those are different abilities. Gelnon is not remotely the same as Counter Attack and Riker. Riker is superficially similar to Counter Attack, but again they aren't the same. Even with the similarities between those two, they are clearly intended to be different due to the obvious differences. And I'm still not getting why you lumped Gelnon in there. Because he's an action that rolls two dice which you don't defend against, I guess? But still not close to the same.

The other three were even sillier to mention. Donatra, Gowron and Martok do similar things (I assume you were talking Martok9), but they do them differently. Not every similar captain/upgrade has to do that style of ability the same way.
 
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yourmonkey06 wrote:
Mr S Baldrick wrote:
A lot of the chaff could have been cut out if there was more consistent wording. How much better would it have been if Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack all had the same text. Same thing with Donatra, Gowron and Martok.

If we could go back I think it would have been better to have a set of universal abilities listed in the rule book and just put the ability name on the cards. Kinda how magic works, when you see trample everyone knows what it means. So then Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack would just have to say "Counter Attack" and you go to the rule book for how the ability works.

But it's too late for that now, maybe in Attack Wing 2.0


Those are different abilities. Gelnon is not remotely the same as Counter Attack and Riker. Riker is superficially similar to Counter Attack, but again they aren't the same. Even with the similarities between those two, they are clearly intended to be different due to the obvious differences. And I'm still not getting why you lumped Gelnon in there. Because he's an action that rolls two dice which you don't defend against, I guess? But still not close to the same.

The other three were even sillier to mention. Donatra, Gowron and Martok do similar things (I assume you were talking Martok9), but they do them differently. Not every similar captain/upgrade has to do that style of ability the same way.


In a game that has so much variation, if the people behind it wish to maintain customer interest (and revenues) they need to construct a consistent vocabulary to achieve simple and straightfoward communication between the varying elements. The game, as it is now, is becoming like M:TG in its most problematic phase. Unless the people behind think that they can thrive over customer anxiety. I am certain that they are well aware that, eventually, the game will be judged on its merits and weaknesses. Once the fad is over, everyone will realize that this game's inherent language problems will make it quite undesirable --the thinking being "it's too unplayable."
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bubblewrap wrote:
yourmonkey06 wrote:
Mr S Baldrick wrote:
A lot of the chaff could have been cut out if there was more consistent wording. How much better would it have been if Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack all had the same text. Same thing with Donatra, Gowron and Martok.

If we could go back I think it would have been better to have a set of universal abilities listed in the rule book and just put the ability name on the cards. Kinda how magic works, when you see trample everyone knows what it means. So then Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack would just have to say "Counter Attack" and you go to the rule book for how the ability works.

But it's too late for that now, maybe in Attack Wing 2.0


Those are different abilities. Gelnon is not remotely the same as Counter Attack and Riker. Riker is superficially similar to Counter Attack, but again they aren't the same. Even with the similarities between those two, they are clearly intended to be different due to the obvious differences. And I'm still not getting why you lumped Gelnon in there. Because he's an action that rolls two dice which you don't defend against, I guess? But still not close to the same.

The other three were even sillier to mention. Donatra, Gowron and Martok do similar things (I assume you were talking Martok9), but they do them differently. Not every similar captain/upgrade has to do that style of ability the same way.


In a game that has so much variation, if the people behind it wish to maintain customer interest (and revenues) they need to construct a consistent vocabulary to achieve simple and straightfoward communication between the varying elements. The game, as it is now, is becoming like M:TG in its most problematic phase. Unless the people behind think that they can thrive over customer anxiety. I am certain that they are well aware that, eventually, the game will be judged on its merits and weaknesses. Once the fad is over, everyone will realize that this game's inherent language problems will make it quite undesirable --the thinking being "it's too unplayable."


Those are horrible examples though. They do different things, so ascribing the same keyword to all of them would make them different cards. Each card in those examples spell out exactly what it does. They are worded differently as they are because they are different. They are not the same, and therefore should not have the same wording.

And seriously, why would Riker and Gelnon be related? Because they both happen to be 2 dice that you don't defend against? They even occur in separate phases and under different conditions.

I'd say reading comprehension is more what's needed.
 
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bubblewrap wrote:

In a game that has so much variation, if the people behind it wish to maintain customer interest (and revenues) they need to construct a consistent vocabulary to achieve simple and straightfoward communication between the varying elements. The game, as it is now, is becoming like M:TG in its most problematic phase. Unless the people behind think that they can thrive over customer anxiety. I am certain that they are well aware that, eventually, the game will be judged on its merits and weaknesses. Once the fad is over, everyone will realize that this game's inherent language problems will make it quite undesirable --the thinking being "it's too unplayable."


I agree that consistent language would be a big improvement.

That said, your prediction of doom is a bit much. It's just as likely that there's no fad that's going to end and things will keep going like they have been - increasing popularity of Attack Wing with its flawed language leading WizKids to be nothing but happy with the game.
 
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yourmonkey06 wrote:
bubblewrap wrote:
yourmonkey06 wrote:
Mr S Baldrick wrote:
A lot of the chaff could have been cut out if there was more consistent wording. How much better would it have been if Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack all had the same text. Same thing with Donatra, Gowron and Martok.

If we could go back I think it would have been better to have a set of universal abilities listed in the rule book and just put the ability name on the cards. Kinda how magic works, when you see trample everyone knows what it means. So then Riker, Gelnon, and Counter Attack would just have to say "Counter Attack" and you go to the rule book for how the ability works.

But it's too late for that now, maybe in Attack Wing 2.0


Those are different abilities. Gelnon is not remotely the same as Counter Attack and Riker. Riker is superficially similar to Counter Attack, but again they aren't the same. Even with the similarities between those two, they are clearly intended to be different due to the obvious differences. And I'm still not getting why you lumped Gelnon in there. Because he's an action that rolls two dice which you don't defend against, I guess? But still not close to the same.

The other three were even sillier to mention. Donatra, Gowron and Martok do similar things (I assume you were talking Martok9), but they do them differently. Not every similar captain/upgrade has to do that style of ability the same way.


In a game that has so much variation, if the people behind it wish to maintain customer interest (and revenues) they need to construct a consistent vocabulary to achieve simple and straightfoward communication between the varying elements. The game, as it is now, is becoming like M:TG in its most problematic phase. Unless the people behind think that they can thrive over customer anxiety. I am certain that they are well aware that, eventually, the game will be judged on its merits and weaknesses. Once the fad is over, everyone will realize that this game's inherent language problems will make it quite undesirable --the thinking being "it's too unplayable."


Those are horrible examples though. They do different things, so ascribing the same keyword to all of them would make them different cards. Each card in those examples spell out exactly what it does. They are worded differently as they are because they are different. They are not the same, and therefore should not have the same wording.

And seriously, why would Riker and Gelnon be related? Because they both happen to be 2 dice that you don't defend against? They even occur in separate phases and under different conditions.

I'd say reading comprehension is more what's needed.


From the FAQ:

William T. Riker: "Action: If you are attacked this round at Range 1, Roll 2 attack dice. Any [DAMAGE] or [CRITICAL] result damages the attacking ship as normal, even if your ship is destroyed by their attack. The attacking ship does not roll any defense dice."

Gelnon: "Action: Target an enemy ship in your forward firing arc withing Range 1 and immediately roll 2 attack dice. The target ship does not roll any defense dice against this attack and sustains damage as normal for each [hit] or [crit]. If you roll at least 1 [battle stations] result, place a [battle stations] token beside your ship."

BOTH are [ACTION]s; this means that Riker's ability is NOT activated in the [Attack] phase (and in this manner it is the SAME as Counter Arrack), its EFFECT occurs in the [ATTACK] phase.

BOTH require for the player to [Roll 2 attack dice]; what do you understand when someone rolls attack dice against your ships? what are they doing to your ships?

BOTH card EFFECTS can damage, but NO (according to the FAQ) Riker is NOT attacking. Gelnon "slaps" a ship: he is attacking. Riker "slaps" a ship because it slapped him, and yet, somehow he is NOT attacking.

You can argue back as much as you want, but we've just proven the same point, my friend; that both cards are "too much hassle", they are not worth it.

One last thing: Ad Hominem is a logical fallacy. Remember that.
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bubblewrap wrote:


From the FAQ:

William T. Riker: "Action: If you are attacked this round at Range 1, Roll 2 attack dice. Any [DAMAGE] or [CRITICAL] result damages the attacking ship as normal, even if your ship is destroyed by their attack. The attacking ship does not roll any defense dice."

Gelnon: "Action: Target an enemy ship in your forward firing arc withing Range 1 and immediately roll 2 attack dice. The target ship does not roll any defense dice against this attack and sustains damage as normal for each [hit] or [crit]. If you roll at least 1 [battle stations] result, place a [battle stations] token beside your ship."

BOTH are [ACTION]s; this means that Riker's ability is NOT activated in the [Attack] phase (and in this manner it is the SAME as Counter Arrack), its EFFECT occurs in the [ATTACK] phase.

BOTH require for the player to [Roll 2 attack dice]; what do you understand when someone rolls attack dice against your ships? what are they doing to your ships?

BOTH card EFFECTS can damage, but NO (according to the FAQ) Riker is NOT attacking. Gelnon "slaps" a ship: he is attacking. Riker "slaps" a ship because it slapped him, and yet, somehow he is NOT attacking.

You can argue back as much as you want, but we've just proven the same point, my friend; that both cards are "too much hassle", they are not worth it.


You wrote a wall of text just to prove that they are different abilities. Congratulations.

The funny part is you didn't even realize that you showed how they are not related in your attempt to show they were the same.

Quote:
One last thing: Ad Hominem is a logical fallacy. Remember that.


So is lack of reading comprehension.
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